Non biased movies

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Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:31 am

Hello Gang,

It’s been quite some time since I’ve posted. You know how it is, kids, work, life has kept me quite busy these past few years. Anyway I digress...

It’s funny but as I age I become more conservative...that in and of itself isn’t funny but as I watch movies I used to enjoy (and many I still do) I cannot help but notice an obvious liberal bias/slant to the movie that I never noticed before. It’s practically pervasive in all movies.
The formula…beyond the realm of the WW@ movie where the Nazi’s make an outstanding heavy…the bad guy is invariably rich, a greedy corporate entity, a redneck, religious fanatic or a shadowy sinister government/police/military official.

The good guy/gal is always the smart hip poor rebel.
A few examples off the top of my head
Titanic - the rich guy is downright evil personified.
Star Trek - Spock rebels against conservative traditional and of course racist Vulcan elders
WALL-E – Anti-capitalism
Oceans 11/12 movies – smart criminals, bad rich casinos
E.T. - Evil militaristic scientist government complex
Butch Cassidy and the endless criminal glorification/bad cop movies
(of course a good counter to this trend was The Untouchables)
Dances with Wolves – evil American imperialism
Platoon – anti-American/military
The Bourne Movies – anti CIA/Military
A Few Good Men - well need I even expand on this one?

Mind you these are not necessarily bad movies...in fact they are quite good, but for a change it would be nice to enjoy a movie that doesn’t have the innate liberal bias. Some that come to mind are Kramer vs. Kramer…where the male is a victim. Toy Story…this really encapsulates what traditionally is best in American movies. Also I find the Harry Potter movies equally bashed conservative and liberal principles, but overall…one has to really work hard to think of movies made after the Sound of Music without hidden liberal subtexts.

Can anyone offer (good) unbiased movie recommendations or better yet those with a conservative subtext?
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Bryan Pope » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:04 pm

Yes, I can. If you want an unbiased movie, you, sir, might want to check out Citizen Ruth if you haven't already. It skewers both sides of the abortion issue equally and hilariously.

Also, to add one to your list, Avatar wears its liberalism proudly on its sleeve. I'm liberal, but even I wanted to shout "shut the hell up" at that movie after a while.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Andrew Forbes » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Counterpoint: Virtually every action/cop movie ever made, and everything before 1968. And I like how you classify meddling government and racism as conservative values. Also, Wall-E was criticizing consumption, not capitalism.

Maybe from now on we should let the free market decide which movies to support. Oh yeah...
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mavrach » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:33 pm

The South Park guys tend to be good about bashing everybody equally. One of my recent favorites was about the last election. The Republicans acted like the world was ending, hiding in bunkers and expecting the country's infrastructure to collapse, while the Democrats partied like a newfound utopia had just been founded, quitting their jobs and such.

Team America: World Police showed the acronym that Alec Baldwin's "Film Actors Guild" turned out to be.

Many 80's action flicks would lean towards the right.


I'm a liberal, but I do see what you mean and how that could be frustrating. Although I agree with the general slant against the rich, lazy storytelling is lazy storytelling. The Old White Man Cabal can be an all too convenient target when you need some sort of villain for your hero to go up against.
+1. this is very interesting.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:38 pm

I've always thought Sci-fi was the ideal place to teach about racism. They can fantasize it enough to get past prejudices and drive the story home. After you've seen something that convinces you that aliens or artificial beings deserve equal rights it's difficult to see skin color as much of anything anymore. I do see your point however.

Wall-E wasn't about capitalism however, I agree on that point. I saw it more about recycling and pollution than anything else. It's ok to consume as long as you re-use and recycle.

Meddling government would be conservative in my opinion. Conservatives think a small government is good, liberals thing the nanny state is good.

Is Rambo conservative? It shows that the only thing to save the people was Rambo and a giant gun, which leads to military spending and the conservatives seem to like sending people to war. It's kind of ironic, the conservatives like war but hate all other government.

Just to be fair I'm neither liberal or conservative. I'm more conservative but I disagree with military spending. Not trying to start a debate, just saying my perspective is as skewed as everyone else's.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:43 pm

Bryan Pope wrote:Yes, I can. If you want an unbiased movie, you, sir, might want to check out Citizen Ruth if you haven't already. It skewers both sides of the abortion issue equally and hilariously.

Also, to add one to your list, Avatar wears its liberalism proudly on its sleeve. I'm liberal, but even I wanted to shout "shut the hell up" at that movie after a while.


True about Avatar, but it’s over the top liberalism makes it more bearable actually, the theme becomes kind of comic bookish and adds an extra dimension of fun.

The Alien movies also had that whole corporate greed subtext too but the 1st and 2nd movies were just so much fun…who cared.

One that wears it's liberalism on its sleeve to the point of insulting all of us (liberals included) is American Beauty. Of course the bad guy is a Marine who abuses his cool drug selling son and is a repressed homosexual to boot. Yes comic book, but the pretentiousness of it all and the sanctimonious Academy awarding it Best Picture as if the movie is a paragon of American virtue by ‘exposing’ the real America...is appalling. I personally have titled this movie American Evil.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:56 pm

Andrew Forbes wrote:Counterpoint: Virtually every action/cop movie ever made, and everything before 1968. And I like how you classify meddling government and racism as conservative values. Also, Wall-E was criticizing consumption, not capitalism.

Maybe from now on we should let the free market decide which movies to support. Oh yeah...


Fair point on the pre 60's cop movies...and I'll throw in the post 60's Dirty Harry pics as they have a pro-police anti ignorant governmental politician/bureaucracy theme that both the left and the right can enjoy.

Hey...I'm all for these movies doing well...but I think many movies would do even better if they had more balance (when appropriate...i.e. All the Presidents Men should be biased where as China Syndrome doesn’t need to be). As a quick example just think about all those awful biased Iraq war movies...if they were balanced they would have done much better at the box office. I also wonder if when it comes to future generations buying these films...the overly biased films will seem dated and have less shelf value.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:25 pm

I'm not sure how bias affects shelf life. It depends on how relevant the bias is to the future generation. Some movies will live on. A guess an example would be westerns. They were typically biased against native americans, however the good westerns live on. The bad ones don't and the relevance of it doesn't help. Singing cowboys for example are pretty much bargain bin fare now. A more recent example is Batman Begins. I know most people who visited the forum at the time wet themselves over it and swore they'd be watching it until they die. I said at the time, and still do, that the movie will not age well. It played up on terrorism and machismo in a way that seem dated now. Sure we still have terrorists, but it's no longer hip to sit around and think about them all day. The political machine created the hype that the movie fed on and Christian Bale played a silly person with testosterone poisoning that was supposed to represent justice striking back. Dark Knight however was a much more balanced movie that played on timeless themes and will live on.

I accepted American Beauty for what it is but I understand your point. The sad fact however is that for a time the military was turning out people who couldn't adjust to a non-military life. I know they have more emphasis on mental training now and not just build a physical machine, and it's helped a lot. I think the 80s were just a rough time because Reaganomics and the military budget led to a different type of thinking. Anyway I'm not an expert on that so I'll defer for now. My point is that the stereotypes in that movie worked for me because they exist so abundantly in real life. It was played up a bit but it was founded on reality. The bias of that movie goes well beyond the military however. Didn't you pick up on the coorporate greed, the loss of family to devotion to a career, the fake marriage front countered against the gay couples being seen as "friends", the misjudged artist, or the futility of collecting material possessions? On a whole the movie works because it throws so many biases against each other that it balances out.

Are you a former marine? 8) I just happen to live near a marine base where 5 years ago there was a rash of wife beatings and some more serious crimes, so maybe I've seen the other side of that bias. I've met ex-military men that were douches, and some who are the most level headed and reasonable people you'll ever meet. The cruel irony is the level headed and reasonable ones are just normal men (not associated with military unless you happen to know them) where the douches carry the military persona with them and give it a bad name.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:36 am

So many things wrong about this topic that I really don't where to begin except to say if conservatives are given the shaft so often maybe they should organize and make good movies about the subjects near & dear to their hearts because honestly, I don't want unbiased films. I want movies that have a point of view and that are passionate about the position they take. I'm secure enough in my own ideas of fairness & morals to be able to take a film which takes an opposing point of view. Because a film presents an alternative point of view means I'm only left to consider it with an open mind, not to accept it blindly. And the reason Iraq movies have mostly failed is because they generally were not very good. Liberal bias had little to do with it with much more of the blame goes to that people don't want to be preached at. Or maybe also most people recognize that the Iraq invasion & occupation was a sham that went a long way to helping destroy the economy of this country as well as costing the lives of tens of thousands of American military personnel in addition to hundreds of thousands of lives of the people we were over there to liberate. People know it was unjustified war and aren't in a hurry to be reminded of all of all the harm it caused this country. I'm sure we will eventually see a good film that sums up the Iraq experience that connects with moviegoers but it ain't been made yet.
Bryan is right on about Wall*E. It's about the dangers of unchecked consumption, not an attack on free enterprise. And as far as free enterprise, we in this country confuse free enterprise for what is good for big business. They are not the same thing.
Dances with Wolves? Are you aware of what this country did to its indigenous population? Do blankets with small pox ring any bells?
Platoon? No big Oliver Stone fan here but you do realize history has proven the anti-war movement was correct about Vietnam, right?
Look. Movies have always had a serious populist streak to them and we are a country that has always revered the underdog, I mean dissent goes back into the DNA of the formation of this country & in order for that conflict work on a dramatic basis, you need to have the little guy face off about the big man. It's basic dramatic structure. It's less politics and more financial as far as the studios are concerned.
You conservatives have all gotten so defensive about material that doesn't fit in your little prefabricated ideas of what point of view a movie should take. Sometimes if you guys would just try relaxing and enjoy a movie instead of trying to twist yourselves into knots in attempts to find "meaning" or "agenda" lurking in every movie we would all get along just peachy.
So rephrase your question or come at it from a less dogmatic view point.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Andrew Forbes » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:42 am

^^Socialism.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:53 am

Andrew Forbes wrote:^^Socialism.

heh
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:07 am

mkiker2089 wrote:Are you a former marine?


Thanks mkiker for your thoughtful comments.

No I’m not a Marine but have served in the military. My take on the military is they are a microcosm of society as a whole, the majority are great people but like any group you got your jerks as well. Yes there are indeed troubled souls in the military but the military’s troubled souls get over played in the media. Statistically the issues of domestic violence, suicide, petty crime, etc in the service tend to mirror the national trends as a whole.

Point on American Beauty. All it was a portrayal of bias, not even that, really just stereotyping. To be honest when I first watched it I enjoyed it, the acting was first rate and it tells a good story, the main character has embarked upon an interesting ‘journey’. But upon 2nd viewing (whether because I’m older or because re-watches allow one tends to be more analytic as you are not absorbed in the plot as much…I don’t know??)

…anyway the portrayal of bias balancing each other out as you say, to me seems really just a cheap stereotypical representation making the movie a shallow representation of the America it targets.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:14 am

Just because most have realized that Vietnam was a fruitless war does that mean all Vietnam movies have to be anti-war? I've never seen Platoon or Apocalypse Now. Actually I avoid most Vietnam era movies because they play out the same every time. Can't you just have a good war movie without making the soldiers themselves a jerk? On the counter why are all WW2 movies about allie heroes and nazi evil? What about a movie with german soldiers (who mostly weren't Nazi's by the way) doing their job to protect their town?

Same goes for Dances With Wolves. Harold may have a point. I was told the small pox blankets is actually more of a myth than truth and that most of the small pox damage was done long before we had struggles with the indians. Anyway, even if our ancestors came over and branded them irons and ran hot pokers up their butts does that mean I want to see a movie about it? No, not really. It would still be liberal bias. I'm sorry if someone gets offended but it's liberal bias to use past opression to opress the current generation. Just like John Lennon calling women "nigger of the world" or affirmative action telling me I can't get a job because my ancestors used to own the people they are giving the job to.

Perhaps this thread is too difficult to stay objective on.

Of course the flip side works as well. For example in American Beauty is it biased that they had the marine be a stereotype of the damaged marine? Is it conservative bias to want something different? What about Ramboo, was it conservative because it showed war is the answer or liberal because it dealt with outside US oppression, or conservative for hinting that we need troops there? I suspect we all have a different answer to that.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:46 am

HGervais wrote:So many things wrong about this topic...


Good thoughts and discussion HGervais :

First the point of my post was not to push for conservative movies…just that the pervasive liberal bias is now old, a distraction and frankly boring. Can’t movie makers get over this thing, scrap the agenda and in my opinion make better movies?
So if I did phrase in too dogmatic a manner, then my bad.

Agree and disagree with you on WALL-E, yes it’s about consumerism…but the preponderance of anti-consumerists are anti-capitalists. (I still love the movie and show it to my kids all the time)

Dances with Wolves – Of course the native Americans got the shaft…but this simplistic movie showed the Sioux as uniformly good, intelligent, peace loving, the Paunee are presented is the complete opposite, and the white-man of course excepting Costner are uniformly the typical ignorant red-neck racist scum perpetually portrayed in film.

Platoon – are you kidding me?? Now you instigated a diatribe (rant actually) from me…I’ll beg your forgiveness in advance (first I’ll say that before Uncle Ho was a Communist he was looking for Independence from France…he did come to the US after WW2, and we rebuffed him…obviously big mistake…why they heck we stuck up for France of all nations I’ll never know)
Anyway that said, once we were fighting a communist insurgency, we had the right intentions. Communism was not a good thing (Russia – killed millions of its own, China same, and N. Vietnam during and after the war followed routine, Pol Pot did same afterward). Reasonable in my mind to make a stand in South Vietnam, while not perfect a far better place than the North. Of course turned out the Army leadership and Johnson were incompetent in prosecuting this war. So yes, not getting involved looks better retrospectively, but cannot apply hindsight to decisions before they are made. General Abraham (who replaced Westmoreland) very nearly corrected all the prior faults, unfortunately he was put in too late (public opinion had changed) and his outstanding efforts were wasted when Nixon changed his mind mid stream and had the Army retreat out of Cambodia just as the game was changing (the Army was 5 kms from the main NVA HQ, an in process of destroying ancillary HQs, supply depots, lines of communication, etc when he got the retreat order).

Obviously we could debate the war in a lot more detail, my point is that an overly simplistic simple statement like…the antiwar movement was correct …doesn’t really suffice.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mavrach » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:51 am

It's true, even some of the subject matter can be itself biased. Typically Vietnam War movies are about how screwed up humanity is, while WWII movies are about great men stoicly performing heroic acts in the name of their country. Gulf War movies tend to be more satirical. You might argue that Vietnam movies are liberal oriented while WWII movies are conservative oriented. The one deviation I can think of was We Were Soldiers, a Vietnam War movie that played like a WWII movie. There's no reason you can't mix it up like that. You can show a psycho with battle fatigue in WWII, or you can show a successful campaign in Vietnam. Hell how about some more WWI movies? Heck get real creative and give me a movie about the War of 1812 ;-)

As for Dances With Wolves, I have no problem with it's take no matter how preachy it is. There are a sad few movies that depict Native Americans without them going on vision quests or having mystical powers, or just being the plain enemies in westerns. And I think they all feature Graham Greene!


So either way, I think a bias can be a good thing if a statement is trying to be made. Or objectivity can be good if you're trying to analyze a subject. Movies are art. But if trends start to form I like to see those broken now and then.
+1. this is very interesting.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:55 am

mkiker2089 wrote:Just because most have realized that Vietnam was a fruitless war does that mean all Vietnam movies have to be anti-war? I've never seen Platoon or Apocalypse Now. Actually I avoid most Vietnam era movies because they play out the same every time. Can't you just have a good war movie without making the soldiers themselves a jerk? On the counter why are all WW2 movies about allie heroes and nazi evil? What about a movie with german soldiers (who mostly weren't Nazi's by the way) doing their job to protect their town?

How can you say movies like Platoon or Apocalypse Now all play out the same if you have never seen them? The two films have little in common except both take place in Vietnam during the military action. Neither film features characters that I would call "jerks", whatever that means.
As for your German soldier movie, Das Boot comes to mind rather quickly. Valkyrie springs to mind right after that. The Desert Fox springs in just after that.

MovieAddict I'd argue your point is less with some liberal bias and more with movies that deal in broad strokes. Sadly nuance rarely sells tickets
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Andrew Forbes » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:44 am

mkiker2089 wrote:Just because most have realized that Vietnam was a fruitless war does that mean all Vietnam movies have to be anti-war? I've never seen Platoon or Apocalypse Now. Actually I avoid most Vietnam era movies because they play out the same every time. Can't you just have a good war movie without making the soldiers themselves a jerk? On the counter why are all WW2 movies about allie heroes and nazi evil? What about a movie with german soldiers (who mostly weren't Nazi's by the way) doing their job to protect their town?

Same goes for Dances With Wolves. Harold may have a point. I was told the small pox blankets is actually more of a myth than truth and that most of the small pox damage was done long before we had struggles with the indians. Anyway, even if our ancestors came over and branded them irons and ran hot pokers up their butts does that mean I want to see a movie about it? No, not really. It would still be liberal bias. I'm sorry if someone gets offended but it's liberal bias to use past opression to opress the current generation. Just like John Lennon calling women "nigger of the world" or affirmative action telling me I can't get a job because my ancestors used to own the people they are giving the job to.

There is so much crazy in this post, I don't even know how to start responding.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:15 am

HGervais wrote:
mkiker2089 wrote:Just because most have realized that Vietnam was a fruitless war does that mean all Vietnam movies have to be anti-war? I've never seen Platoon or Apocalypse Now. Actually I avoid most Vietnam era movies because they play out the same every time. Can't you just have a good war movie without making the soldiers themselves a jerk? On the counter why are all WW2 movies about allie heroes and nazi evil? What about a movie with german soldiers (who mostly weren't Nazi's by the way) doing their job to protect their town?

How can you say movies like Platoon or Apocalypse Now all play out the same if you have never seen them? The two films have little in common except both take place in Vietnam during the military action. Neither film features characters that I would call "jerks", whatever that means.
As for your German soldier movie, Das Boot comes to mind rather quickly. Valkyrie springs to mind right after that. The Desert Fox springs in just after that.

MovieAddict I'd argue your point is less with some liberal bias and more with movies that deal in broad strokes. Sadly nuance rarely sells tickets



I did see Valkyrie and I will give you that one. I need to see Das Boot and Desert Fox. I grew up in the 80s and there were a lot of forgettable war movies. It seems like in the 80s and early 90s they all fell into one of three categories vietnam = political agenda, ww2 = allied heroes, post war = soldiers are brave and misunderstood. I've avoided them because of that. However Netflix says I'd like Apocalypse Now so I'll have to reconsider.

I think that the bias is more obvious if it isn't done well like you said. Movies need bias to a certain extent to create conflict. I just get tired of seeing the same thing over and over.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:59 am

Well, if Netflix says you'll like something...
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Steve T Power » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:06 pm

Observation about war movies and people who grew up in the '80s - People who grew up in the '80s didn't watch war movies, and get all of their preconceived notions on war movies from stand up, sketch comedies, and the Simpsons. I'm a huge war movie buff, and I can't tell you how VERY FEW of the perceived "war movie cliches" i've actually observed in the hundreds of war films i've seen.

Considerably less than say, oh your average comedy or animated film, which follow the beat sheets to the letter.

Also: I'd cite Kingdom of Heaven for its attempt at being non-biased. Both of the opposing faiths in the film are presented in a "for better or worse" manner, and even the denouement, "Even now, peace in the Kingdom of Heaven remains illusive" doesn't condemn one or the other faction. No, it's not a realistic portrayal given the time period (though, many historical documents point to both Saladin and Balian of Ibelin as being atypically tolerant of other faiths for the time), but it's still a noble attempt at non-partisan storytelling.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:53 pm

HGervais wrote:Well, if Netflix says you'll like something...


I've rated over 1500 titles with them. Netflix is usually within a half star of knowing what I'll like.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Ptolemy » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:52 am

MovieAddict wrote:
...

Agree and disagree with you on WALL-E, yes it’s about consumerism…but the preponderance of anti-consumerists are anti-capitalists. (I still love the movie and show it to my kids all the time)
....


Gran Torino has a conservative-ish hero - though he may have been in a union at some point. Kelly's Heroes pokes some fun at the heroes- calls them Republicans (more or less). Lots of John Wayne movies of course, I'll try to think of some others...

I had something to say about the quote above - but couldn't word it without sounding like a dick. I'm fine with Movie Addict wanting to see movies with a different 'slant'. He owes me no justifications.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mavrach » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:10 am

Clint Eastwood is Conservative. It's funny that he accidentally made a liberal movie in Million Dollar Baby.

Ridley Scott goes back and forth between both sides. Alien, G.I. Jane, and Thelma & Louise are women's rights movies, Black Hawk Down is pure military love.
+1. this is very interesting.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:42 am

I had forgotten about Gran Torino, good call on that one. Well worth a watch in my opinion. It shows that classic conservative values are still very much in place today.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:40 pm

mkiker2089 wrote:It shows that classic conservative values are still very much in place today.
I'm sure I'll regret the question but I'll bite. What exactly are classic conservative values?
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Attrage » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:18 pm

Steve T Power wrote:Also: I'd cite Kingdom of Heaven for its attempt at being non-biased. Both of the opposing faiths in the film are presented in a "for better or worse" manner, and even the denouement, "Even now, peace in the Kingdom of Heaven remains illusive" doesn't condemn one or the other faction. No, it's not a realistic portrayal given the time period (though, many historical documents point to both Saladin and Balian of Ibelin as being atypically tolerant of other faiths for the time), but it's still a noble attempt at non-partisan storytelling.


Well said. One of my favourite films and I also love that there's not really any clear "bad guy" (I suppose Marton Csokas' character aside) in that you are presented with both protagonist's points of view, and both have quite legitimate and understandable reasons for wanting to battle over Jerusalem.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:00 pm

HGervais wrote:
mkiker2089 wrote:It shows that classic conservative values are still very much in place today.
I'm sure I'll regret the question but I'll bite. What exactly are classic conservative values?


OK...I'll bite back and answer...

Small government
work ethic
individual rights, choice and responsibility
low taxes
strong national defense

Gran Torino - definitely hits individual rights/responsibility, work ethic themes.
But negative points that the conservative character is a pro-gun racist at begining of film, true the character evolves out of the stereotype but the sterotype seems to be the hollywood baseline for a conservative character. Liklely Eastwood's character is a blue dog democrat anyway...
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:03 pm

egads...sorry for the atrocious spelling on that last one. I really need to proof read before hitting submit.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Andrew Forbes » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:09 pm

Liberals don't value a strong work ethic. Right.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:51 pm

Andrew Forbes wrote:Liberals don't value a strong work ethic. Right.


There's a difference between having something and having it be one of the fundamental cores. Many liberals may have a great work ethic but it's not a liberal core value just as many conservatives are very open minded but it's not their core either. It's all stereotypes however so who's to say really. Clint Eastwood portrayed a conservative to me based on stereotypes that the conservatives seem to embrace. I suppose we could sum it by saying Clint Eastwood and the character's he portrays would never be seen occupying Wall Street.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:18 pm

Andrew Forbes wrote:Liberals don't value a strong work ethic. Right.


I was tasked with providing core values of conservatism as a political philosophy, not individual character traits.

I would say that core values of liberalism would be:

Big government, collective good, tolerance/acceptance of all, pacifism.

Individually a liberal can be a jerk and a conservative a saint or vice versa, individuals are complex and rarely 'toe' the doctrine line...those that do are zealots/idealogues (we all know the type...tend to be SOBs), and adhere believe in a mix of traditional liberal and conservative core values.

My beef is that movies tend to extoll the virtues of liberal philosophy while demonizing conservative. Its an old vacuous pattern, thats why I'm looking for some refreshing new movies that escape this tired paradigm.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:26 pm

I'm going to take these one by one, so forgive me.
MovieAddict wrote:
Small government
You are aware that under Clinton we saw the federal government reduced by historic levels and under Bush we saw the creation of the third largest government agency almost over night, right? Under Bush we also saw two unfunded wars, the creation of the first new federal entitlement program since LBJ was President, the great recession, the implosion of the financial sector, massive umemployment and spending this country into the biggest debt it has ever seen. Even now if you break down the debt the Bush administration is still on the hook for almost 78% of it.
And I continue to believe that it isn't the size of government that is the problem, it is the efficiency or lack of, government that becomes the issue.

work ethic
I can't even dignify that one with a response except whatever.

individual rights, choice and responsibility
Both parties have pushed through an expansion of governmental power that invades the lives of its citizens and reduces privacy and to attempt to lay that at the feet of only Democrats takes a position that doesn't take in the facts. And the GOP's supposed belief in a less intrusive government hits the road when it comes to stuff they don't agree with.

low taxes
You are aware federal taxation levels are at their lowest levels since Truman was President, yes? You know that with the stimulus bill President Obama signed the third largest tax cut in this nation's history into law, right? You do know that in his time in office Obama has cut taxes more than Bush did in his entire 8 years in office, right? You do know the average top rate under Ronald Reagan was 50%, right? You are aware that under both the plans Rep. Paul Ryan & Mitt Romney are offering up taxes will be increased on the middle class, right? You are aware the GOP is going to block a bill this week that the President is pushing for that will increase payroll taxes on the average by $1,500 a year, right? It's why I don't get the Tea Party. They are supposed to be all about low taxes except taxes are already at historic lows and the President has made tax reduction a part of every funding & deficit bill he has put before Congress.

strong national defense
Wow. Bush: 9/11. Lost Bin Laden in Tora Bora. Iraq. Afghanistan. Reduced world standing in the international community. Obama. No attacks. Bin Laden dead. Al Qaeda in shambles. Increased use of predator drones. Successful leadership in the international community which has lead to regime changes in Egypt and Libya. Oh yeah, every President since Reagan tried to get rid of him as well. The GOP have absolutely zero footing on trying to go after Obama on foreign policy and national defense. He has taken the issue away from them and been more successful in that arena than any President since the smart Bush was in the White House.

I think the problem with your thinking, and I think this is a general problem we have these days which in no small part is encouraged by the media, is that the words liberal & conservative really don't mean the same things they used to. I was raised in a Republican family and by that I mean Goldwater & Reagan. Ronald Reagan was the 1st President I voted for. I voted for Bush 41 twice. Hell I voted for Bush 43 in 2000...and I don't usually admit that so openly...I guess the point I'm trying to make is the metric has changed. I'm still very much a pragmatic centrist. I'm more concerned with facts and how they form policy and less with ideology. In the political vernacular of 20 or 30 years ago I could have been either a moderate Republican in the Howard Baker variety or a moderate Democrat in the Sam Nunn mold. By today's standards I'm now a liberal Democrat. It isn't me or the way I apply or process information that has changed, it's the parties themselves that have changed. The GOP has moved further to the right, off the deep end I'd say while the Democrats have moved further to the right as well, and for that I say you have to thank Reagan. Classic liberalism as sneered at by everyone on Faux News is pretty much a dead animal. Obama isn't a liberal. He is another centrist Democrat who 30 years ago could have been a member of either party. To call him a liberal or a communist or a socialist or a fascist simply doesn't look at the facts of what he has pushed for and the legislation he has signed into law.

Gran Torino - definitely hits individual rights/responsibility, work ethic themes.
Again, I don't accept your belief that a strong work ethic is a conservative value. It isn't. To say that, well, I find it almost offensive. It's like saying conservatives are more patriotic than liberal are. It's just bs.

But negative points that the conservative character is a pro-gun racist at beginning of film, true the character evolves out of the stereotype but the stereotype seems to be the Hollywood baseline for a conservative character. Likely Eastwood's character is a blue dog democrat anyway...
I for one don't think all racists are pro-gun or that all pro-gun citizens are racists. I think his character in Gran Torino is cut from the same basic cloth as most of the characters Eastwood has played but especially Harry Callahan.

Oh and mavrach said that Eastwood is a conservative. it really isn't that simple,
Eastwood registered as a Republican to vote for Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1952 and later supported Richard Nixon's 1968 and 1972 presidential campaigns. However, he later criticized Nixon's handling of the Vietnam War and his morality during Watergate.[256][257] He expressed his disapproval of America's wars in Korea (1950–1953), Vietnam (1964–1973), and Iraq (2003–2011), believing that the United States should not be overly militaristic or play the role of global policeman. He considers himself too individualistic to be either right-wing or left-wing, describing himself as a "political nothing" and a moderate in 1974[257] and a libertarian in 1997.[258] Eastwood has stated that while he does not see himself as conservative, he is not an "ultra-leftist" either.[259] At times he has supported Democrats in California, including Representative Sam Farr in 2002 and Governor Gray Davis in 2003.[260] A longtime libertarian on social issues, Eastwood has stated that he is pro-choice on abortion.[261] He has endorsed the notion of allowing gays to marry[259] and contributed to groups supporting the Equal Rights Amendment for women.[262]

Anyway, sorry for the length of the response but I wanted to take it seriously and deal with it point by point.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mavrach » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:11 am

Ah ok, I only remembered hearing Eastwood saying he was conservative in defending Million Dollar Baby, as conservatives attacked it on the euthanasia topic.
+1. this is very interesting.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby HGervais » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:45 pm

Then there is Gran Torino the lunch box.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:09 pm

HGervais wrote:I'm going to take these one by one, so forgive me.
Anyway, sorry for the length of the response but I wanted to take it seriously and deal with it point by point.


You do realize that liberal/conservative ideology and party politics are not necessarily the same thing??

I'm not going to retort your retort (but I'd love a slice of chocolate torte...and would'nt complain about tort reform either) as its beyond the scope of my post...you asked for conservative values, and I gave some...detailed philosophic commentary will bore all to tears.

By the way...Dirty Harry Calahan was not racist...IMHO.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Bryan Pope » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:43 pm

MovieAddict wrote:
HGervais wrote:
mkiker2089 wrote:It shows that classic conservative values are still very much in place today.
I'm sure I'll regret the question but I'll bite. What exactly are classic conservative values?


OK...I'll bite back and answer...

individual rights, choice and responsibility

I have several gay and lesbian friends who I suspect would disagree with this.

And pass the chocolate torte over here, please.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby mkiker2089 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:02 pm

Bryan Pope wrote:
MovieAddict wrote:
HGervais wrote:
mkiker2089 wrote:It shows that classic conservative values are still very much in place today.
I'm sure I'll regret the question but I'll bite. What exactly are classic conservative values?


OK...I'll bite back and answer...

individual rights, choice and responsibility

I have several gay and lesbian friends who I suspect would disagree with this.

And pass the chocolate torte over here, please.


Depends on the choice. Typically a conservative would say the made the choice to be gay. Liberals will say that it has been scientifically proven that orientation is from birth. You can choose to act on it or repress it but the desire is built into the brain.

People seem to be taking this thread too personally and rather than have a discussion of movies they are attacking each other with political agendas. I'll set my ideals out there and remember it's generalizations. Hitler was a liberal, but so was Lincoln. I'll try to list good and bad.

Conservative
- responsibility of choice (not choice exactly) regarding orientation, sexual activity, even poverty to a certain extent
- guns, most conservatives believe in the right to have lots of guns even if they don't want one
- small political machine, large political protection as in military and law enforcement (it's not fair to tie government size to military and law enforcement, they are distinct entities and Bush's government size is not accurate because of it.)
- strong punishment for crime, goes back to point one. often death penalty is seeked for what liberals would consider redeemable.
- low taxes in theory but often high taxes to pay for military spending

Liberal
- higher taxes in theory to pay for services but often lower taxes in reality as part of social engineering.
- reform rather than punishment for crime
- freedom of choice over ones body in most forms
- gun control

There are things that may not be fair to tie to each side also. Liberals for example are more likely to be the silly nerds that give them a bad name. Like the people at occupy wallstreet that came up with the weird hand gestures. Conservatives are more likely to have racist speech patterns (not necessarily racism itself) and are more prone to history oriented hobbies such as old cars, military figures, western furniture etc..


Anyway, any good conservative value movies that aren't agenda oriented. An agenda from either side is annoying. On that, what the recent movie about purgatory with two women who died on the abortion table? It's strange because Republicans are generally protestant and they don't believe in purgatory unless it helps sell a movie. Do Catholics even have it anymore?
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby MovieAddict » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:46 am

MovieAddict wrote:
...detailed philosophic commentary will bore all to tears.



Hope this wasnt misconstrued as taking it personal. I was trying to convey that if I waxed political...it would be a long and boring post instead of the usual fun and/or interesting posts people write...plus overly political posts distract from movie discussions.

Also apologies to HGervais...it wasnt you who asked what conservative values were...sorry about that.

MKiker said it well...movies that dont preach (whether right or left) are the best.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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Re: Non biased movies

Postby Bryan Pope » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:57 am

mkiker2089 wrote:
Bryan Pope wrote:
MovieAddict wrote:
HGervais wrote:
mkiker2089 wrote:It shows that classic conservative values are still very much in place today.
I'm sure I'll regret the question but I'll bite. What exactly are classic conservative values?


OK...I'll bite back and answer...

individual rights, choice and responsibility

I have several gay and lesbian friends who I suspect would disagree with this.

And pass the chocolate torte over here, please.


Depends on the choice. Typically a conservative would say the made the choice to be gay. Liberals will say that it has been scientifically proven that orientation is from birth. You can choose to act on it or repress it but the desire is built into the brain.

Actually, I was referring to a gay or lesbian's entitlement to all of the same rights straight people enjoy. (e.g. the right to marry, adopt). Rights that many of them are still denied.
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