More Airline Stuff

[Paul Kile]

IChiWawa,
Thanks for your comments on the other thread. Yes, Pan Am used to be the US "Flag Carrier" on international routes, and their success was due to the tyrannical Juan Trippe - he bankrupted and absorbed the international arm of American Airlines (American Overseas Airlines) in the early 1950s, and almost put TWA out of business, but Howard Hughes proved too much of an immovable object.

I remember the old Pan Am terminal at JFK, it looked sort of like the C57D Space Cruiser from Forbidden Planet I also had the privilege of seeing (and walking through) the Russian Aeroflot TU-114 in 1959, when it visited New York. I was 6 years old at the time. I almost started an international incident - the tips of the inboard propellers (18-foot diameter contra-rotating units) were only about 3 feet off the ground. Like a typical kid, I reached up and grabbed the prop and found it turned really easily. Suddenly this big Russian guard in a bearskin cap ran over, yelling NYET!! NYET!!! My Dad grabbed me and hauled me away, just in time!

And the Comet...never got to fly on one, but a buddy of mine did when Mexicana flew them in the 1960s. He said the sound at engine startup was incredible, with those engines right up next to the cabin. A beautiful chorus of 4 Rolls Royce Avons. Got to walk through one at Duxford, the interior is sort of a mix of DC-7 and DC-8, with curtains on the windows.

Too bad Dunnyman played the race card and got the other thread locked up. Sorry that my childhood memories brand me as a racist, but that is not the case. I promise to be good and to try and avoid discussions that could be interpreted as seditious....

[Chris_Sax]

why do you hate black people?

[Paul Kile]

why do you hate black people?

If you have something cogent and interesting to contribute regarding airline flying, let's hear it. If not, this thread will get locked up just like the last one.

I am married to an Asian woman, my best friend is black. Ask them if I am a racist.

That is all.

[HGervais]

And I have to admit, I have taken to wearing jeans and T-shirts on flights nowadays, because if they are going to treat me like a gol-durn bus rider, I figure I will dress the part. But it makes me sad, to see how far the airline industry has descended into mediocrity. OK, flying is now egalitarian, open to anyone who can scrape together the cost of the ticket.

Sometimes I wish I could have that wide-eyed, slack-jawed enthusiasm of Bubba Budweiser or Cissy Cellphone boarding a Southwest 737 for the first time.

I am 43 & old enough to remember flying in the 1970's when things were much different and I remember smoking being allowed on flights, which oddly enough made the air better to breathe on flights for everyone and I sympathize with anyone longing for the way things used to be but honestly the above comments do not reflect well on you. I don't find your remarks racist but I do find them troublesome. I mean if you didn't mean to say that flying should be open to people of a certain class or that by wearing jeans to fly you are reducing yourself to their level or that these people are gol-durned stupid, please clarify.

[Steve T Power]

I'm sorry, but i think the reactions to Paul's statements are a little over-sensitive and i really don't think the response he was given on the other thread, or here, is warranted or fair. Air travel has changed in the last 4-5 decades, just like everything else on the planet. From where i stand, the guy was just reflecting. Cut him some slack.

[Belmondo]

Hey Paul,
My father flew a DC-4 in the Air Transport Command during World War II and then had a full career as a pilot for American Airlines.
As a young boy, I got the chance to check out all the aircraft he flew which included the Convair, DC-6 and DC-7, BAC 111, Electra turbo prop, and 727.
He let me sit in the jump seat of the Convair on a flight from Boston to New York. It was a huge thrill and something I will always remember. My father knew Earnie Gann from the ATC days and Earnie went on to write "The High and the Mighty", "Island in the Sky", and other great aircraft novels and movies.

Since we seem compelled to discuss issues of racism and egalitarianism; I do remember my father telling me that the airlines were searching for qualified women and minorities as pilots, and my father had as co-pilots the first African American and the first woman hired by the airline. Beyond that, I think flying was considered upscale and expensive in the old days and had more to do with the cost of a ticket than anything else.

[Dunnyman]

I'm sorry, but i think the reactions to Paul's statements are a little over-sensitive and i really don't think the response he was given on the other thread, or here, is warranted or fair. Air travel has changed in the last 4-5 decades, just like everything else on the planet. From where i stand, the guy was just reflecting. Cut him some slack.

No, I don't think it's over sensitive. Basically the guy is saying that it was better in the old days when only the rich could fly. That sounds pretty close to snobbery to me. And his "Bubba Budweiser" comment was incredibly offensive, too. I, too, had a "wide eyed wonder" on my very first flight, but even though my family didn't have money, we weren't ignorant hillbillies. He seems to think being poor equates ignorance, and THAT IS snobbery.
I call 'em like I see 'em.

[Gobear]

Dunny is being a touch oversensitive. I wasn't alive in the 50s, and only started flying in the 80s, long after American society had become dumbed-down.

And what's wrong with dressing to impress? Like most people here, I love old noir films, and in those movies every man, even the thugs, wore suits with matching tie and handkerchief, topped off with a swanky grey fedora. Women wore dresses with pearls and dainty white gloves when they went out. What's wrong with wearing one's best in public?

In an age where harlots and criminals are celebrated and admired, and where speaking proper English is "talking like a fag", maybe we could do worse than to revive elegance, manners, and style.

[Paul Kile]

Good points, Gobear. My comments about Bubba and Cissy did not apply to those folks that could not afford to dress well on an airplane, nor did they mean to demean those who fly for the first time and don't know the ropes. What bugs me are those who dress like slobs because they don't care. Dressing up to fly in the same sort of clothes that you would wear if you were going to Church or a special event was something that made flying special.

Uh Oh, I just realized I used the word "Church"....I'd better qualify that and include Mosque, Synagogue, Temple, Place of Worship, or Atheist or Agnostic meeting room, lest someone out there smite me for not acknowledging their belief or non-belief of choice!!

And Belmondo, seems we had a real similar childhood. Dad flew PBYs and PB4Ys in the Pacific, then joined United after the war. He flew DC-3's, 4's, 6's and 7's, Convairs, then finished his career in the 727. Got to sit in the jumpseat of a DC-6 for a night takeoff once, my Sister was up there for the landing. And your Dad knew Ernie Gann....COOL! One of my favorite books is "Fate is the Hunter", and I even like the Glenn Ford movie with that silly DC-6-based "jet". Was one of the first in line last year to pick up the DVDs of High and the Mighty and Island in the Sky.

[Chris_Sax]

I'm sorry, but i think the reactions to Paul's statements are a little over-sensitive and i really don't think the response he was given on the other thread, or here, is warranted or fair. Air travel has changed in the last 4-5 decades, just like everything else on the planet. From where i stand, the guy was just reflecting. Cut him some slack.

Why do you hate Jews?

[Erick Harper]

I'm sorry, but i think the reactions to Paul's statements are a little over-sensitive and i really don't think the response he was given on the other thread, or here, is warranted or fair. Air travel has changed in the last 4-5 decades, just like everything else on the planet. From where i stand, the guy was just reflecting. Cut him some slack.

Why do you hate Jews?

"Throw Sax down the well/so my people can be free..."

[Dunnyman]

In an age where harlots and criminals are celebrated and admired

Hey, there's NOTHING wrong with harlots....however, I agree that people dressed much sharper in the old days, and I certainly wouldn't mind a bit more elegance and style in the world these days, but when you equate elegance with wealth and insinuate that those who aren't wealthy can't be elegant, that's where I'm gonna disagree.
If he'd said "Man, air travel used to be so cool in the old days, I miss it when everyone would look sharp on flights", there'd have been no problem, but when he starts making "Bubba Budweiser" comments, no, I'm not going to sit back and ignore it.
Still "don't know the ropes"? I didn't know there were "ropes" for flying. My first flight I wore a fresh, well scrubbed pair of Levi's and a nice sweater and my jacket because it was winter. Was I supposed to have top hat, white tie and tails? I'd have gotten the crap beaten out of my during my 3 hour layover at LaGuardia! And yes, the clothes I wore were what I normally wore, because my widowed mother couldn't afford to buy me a suit so's I could look spiffy in the air. The paper route that I worked like a dog to afford the trip didn't exactly leave me flush with cash, so I wasn't buying anything fancy either. Terribly sorry I wore commoner clothing and might have offended your sense of elegance.

[Steve T Power]

I'm sorry, but i think the reactions to Paul's statements are a little over-sensitive and i really don't think the response he was given on the other thread, or here, is warranted or fair. Air travel has changed in the last 4-5 decades, just like everything else on the planet. From where i stand, the guy was just reflecting. Cut him some slack.

Why do you hate Jews?

I hate everybody, it's easier that way.

[HGervais]

If he'd said "Man, air travel used to be so cool in the old days, I miss it when everyone would look sharp on flights", there'd have been no problem, but when he starts making "Bubba Budweiser" comments, no, I'm not going to sit back and ignore it.

That is exactly what I'm thinking as well. It is one thing to look back fondly on the past and wish people in general would show a little more class or that people would show more respect towards others but it becomes quite another thing when you start lacing comments like a gol-durn bus rider, OK, flying is now egalitarian, open to anyone who can scrape together the cost of the ticket and yes, wide-eyed, slack-jawed enthusiasm of Bubba Budweiser or Cissy Cellphone into the mix. I mean if you are going throw those kinds of comments out there, don't be surprised if other people focus in on them and find them offensive or troublesome. Dunny and I didn't start this little firestorm, Paul did.

[Jon Mercer]

I'm sorry, but i think the reactions to Paul's statements are a little over-sensitive and i really don't think the response he was given on the other thread, or here, is warranted or fair. Air travel has changed in the last 4-5 decades, just like everything else on the planet. From where i stand, the guy was just reflecting. Cut him some slack.

Why do you hate Jews?

I hate everybody, it's easier that way.

It's true...Steve puts out his cigarettes on me because my mother is Irish.

[Future Man]

How about the view (perhaps enforceable only in the the usual ways an affront to good manners are) that it's simply not proper to board wearing shorts or sweatpants? Everyone can afford actual long pants, right? Or is that being snobbish too.

[HGervais]

How about the view (perhaps enforceable only in the the usual ways an affront to good manners are) that it's simply not proper to board wearing shorts or sweatpants? Everyone can afford actual long pants, right? Or is that being snobbish too.

Mike. Talking about dress codes isn't the same thing as making slams against people who don't have the money or means to fly on a regular basis. As for the larger dress code thing....30/40 years ago commercial flying was something that still fairly new to most people and like most new things, it was treated differently. Flying for most people was a special occassion and that brought with it dress codes and the like. Those times have changed. As discount airlines have become the fashion and as these past 30/40 years have passed, flying has become more a part of every day life and thus people have become more casual about it. You can say things were better then and that might be true or you could just say things were different back then and that would not be wrong either. Personally I would just as soon wear shorts & a t-shirt or jeans & a sweatshirt everywhere I go but that is just me. I like to be comfortable and I fail to see how it impacts anyone else's life or existence. That isn't the point we are arguing. Looking back at fondly at the way things used to be is one thing, taking swipes at people who have less money and implying they have brought things down to a lower level is something else.

[Dunnyman]

How about the view (perhaps enforceable only in the the usual ways an affront to good manners are) that it's simply not proper to board wearing shorts or sweatpants? Everyone can afford actual long pants, right? Or is that being snobbish too.

Not the least bit snobbish, but a tad unrealistic, depending on where you're going. I am NOT going to wear long pants flying into Daytona Beach in July! Don't know if you've ever been to Sacramento in August, but it's not exactly a long pants kind of place, unless of course you enjoy heat stroke. Hey, I learned my lesson after flying into Heathrow wearing shorts and a t-shirt only to find out we weren't using one of those tunnel things, and it was a balmy 36 out.....dress for WHERE you're going.

[Future Man]

How about the view (perhaps enforceable only in the the usual ways an affront to good manners are) that it's simply not proper to board wearing shorts or sweatpants? Everyone can afford actual long pants, right? Or is that being snobbish too.

Not the least bit snobbish, but a tad unrealistic, depending on where you're going. I am NOT going to wear long pants flying into Daytona Beach in July! Don't know if you've ever been to Sacramento in August, but it's not exactly a long pants kind of place, unless of course you enjoy heat stroke. Hey, I learned my lesson after flying into Heathrow wearing shorts and a t-shirt only to find out we weren't using one of those tunnel things, and it was a balmy 36 out.....dress for WHERE you're going.

I understand your point, but I've been to summer afternoon weddings in Florida, and I still have to wear a suit. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do--after all how would our man James Bond dress on a commerical flight bound for the Bahamas?

[Paul Kile]

Funny you mention the issue of shorts - I'm from Sacramento, and I wear long pants on all my flights, regardless of season. Partly due to my pasty white legs that rarely see the light of day and would cause others around me to recoil in horror, but also a tenuous and probably misguided belief that long pants might offer a few seconds of additional protection in the event of a fire. Plus, once you are in the air they usually turn up the air conditioning to Arctic levels. I remember an L-1011 flight back from Hawaii where we placed our leis on the floor next to the cabin wall. They were frozen solid by the time we got back to San Francisco!

One last comment - I can understand why someone could jump to conclusions and become offended about a poster's comment, but why would they continue to rant after the initial poster clarified their position and removed the original reason for the offense?

I will agree to avoid any further political, cultural, or theological discussions on this thread that could be construed as value judgements, if others agree to do the same.

I liked commercial flying in the '50s and '60s, and like stories about it. It is obvious that there are others who do as well. That's what this thread is for.

[Dunnyman]

I understand your point, but I've been to summer afternoon weddings in Florida, and I still have to wear a suit. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do--after all how would our man James Bond dress on a commerical flight bound for the Bahamas?

When I'm one tenth as cool as Bond, I'll wear a suit on a flight to a hot place.... Until then, I'm going for comfort, sure you might have to wear a suit when you get there, but not until I absolutely have to. I'll probably throw my tux in the back seat and change when I get to the church for my wedding...in the parking lot. In front of the bride's parents. And grandparents.

For what it's worth, I thought the glamour of the travel business back in the day was pretty cool, too, and I avidly collect posters from the era. What I'd like to do is start an old school travel company and run train and ship tours with all the old style trappings, black tie dinners only, that sort of thing. That old school elegance went out, but there ARE people who still dig it, where the HELL is Maintcoder on this issue? He's big fan of the old style suits and what have you. If enough people put the effort into it, and try to dress as sharp as possible, the rest of the people may come around. Paul, I'll send you a PM when I get the company up and running...

[HGervais]

One last comment - I can understand why someone could jump to conclusions and become offended about a poster's comment, but why would they continue to rant after the initial poster clarified their position and removed the original reason for the offense?

Paul you are trying to make this about Dunny or myself jumping to conclusions when it is you who made the comments. Taken within the context of what you wrote, it isn't unreasonable for people to see the comments as something offensive. I will admit that sometimes Dunny can go from zero to shrill in really quick time but if he played the race card it is only because you put it on the table to be picked up. Like I said, I don't read your comments as racial but at best they come off as you looking down on people because of their economic status. Why else make a comment about scraping together the change in order to book a flight? That may not be what you meant but it isn't unreasonable to read them the way we did. I would also say you & I are probably closer together than we are apart in wishing for things to be a little more of what they used to be like across the board. In some ways progress isn't what it used to be. All I wish is in your lamenting about a better dressed past you hadn't felt the need to take swipes at other people. So yeah, consider this train of thought done on my end.

I liked commercial flying in the '50s and '60s, and like stories about it. It is obvious that there are others who do as well. That's what this thread is for.

I agree. Flying used to be really swank stuff and those films which feature airline travel are pretty cool snapshots into a different era.

[Dunnyman]

[I will admit that sometimes Dunny can go from zero to shrill in really quick time but if he played the race card it is only because you put it on the table to be picked up.

Gee, thanks, Harold... What can I say, I've got a hot temper...

[The Butcher]

Hey! What the hell is wrong with riding the bus?

[TemporalWisdom]

Hey! What the hell is wrong with riding the bus?

Yeah. I know how much you love riding the short ones.

[Jon Mercer]

Hey! What the hell is wrong with riding the bus?

Yeah. I know how much you love riding the short ones.

I thought I told you to leave Mitch's old lady out of this.

[Mitchell Hattaway]

Hey! What the hell is wrong with riding the bus?

Yeah. I know how much you love riding the short ones.

I thought I told you to leave Mitch's old lady out of this.

Considering how long you and Beth have been togther, it's obvious she loves riding the short one.

[Jon Mercer]

Hey! What the hell is wrong with riding the bus?

Yeah. I know how much you love riding the short ones.

I thought I told you to leave Mitch's old lady out of this.

Considering how long you and Beth have been togther, it's obvious she loves riding the short one.

I keep telling you that 5'9 isn't short...its average.

[Dan Mancini]

Hey! What the hell is wrong with riding the bus?

Yeah. I know how much you love riding the short ones.

I thought I told you to leave Mitch's old lady out of this.

Considering how long you and Beth have been togther, it's obvious she loves riding the short one.

I keep telling you that 5'9 isn't short...its average.

5.9 centimeters, however...

[Mitchell Hattaway]

I keep telling you that 5'9 isn't short...its average.

5.9 centimeters, however...

Hell, that's probably some sort of record up there.