the obligatory film noir thread

[molly1216]

From the What are we watching now thread:

I watched Double Indemnity for the first time. Prepare for more blasphemy, Molly. Definitely a good film, though I was not blown away by it as many seem to have been. My main problem is Barbara Stanwyk. People always refer to her performance as that of the definitive femme fatale. Frankly, I didn't find the character all that interesting. Wilder's direction is fantastic, though, and the script is great. Tons of atmosphere. Still, I'd pick Out of the Past or The Maltese Falcon over this.

OUT OF THE PAST is one of my favorite noirs and I'll never figure out why Jane Greer didn't become a big star.
However. I do think DOUBLE INDEMNITY works better as a film noir than does MALTESE FALCON. Even though I don't really agree with it, I remember hearing a theory that Billy Wilder began film noir in 1944 with DOUBLE INDEMNITY and ended it in 1950 with SUNSET BOULEVARD.

hey i like Double Indemnity and it's in my top 10 noirs but it's not sacred.
The beginning of noir is spotty...i don't consider Maltese Falcon as true noir, Spade isn't a tormented character making bad decisions, he's a regular guy who is slightly corrupt who find out just where his line in the sand is.There are plenty of noirs before Double Indemnity - Laura, This gun for Hire, etc...the oldest one in my collection is Von Sternburgs' The Shanghai Gesture (1941) though an argument could be made that that film colmpletes the throughline between German expressionism and Noir. I think the most reasonable benchmark for the end of the noir period was Kiss Me Deadly (1955) though just to be contrary i would say Touch of Evil (1958) as the point where we came full circle on noir , basically the snake was eating it's tail by then.

[HGervais]

hey i like Double Indemnity and it's in my top 10 noirs but it's not sacred.
The beginning of noir is spotty...i don't consider Maltese Falcon as true noir, Spade isn't a tormented character making bad decisions, he's a regular guy who is slightly corrupt who find out just where his line in the sand is.There are plenty of noirs before Double Indemnity - Laura, This gun for Hire, etc...the oldest one in my collection is Von Sternburgs' The Shanghai Gesture (1941) though an argument could be made that that film colmpletes the throughline between German expressionism and Noir. I think the most reasonable benchmark for the end of the noir period was Kiss Me Deadly (1955) though just to be contrary i would say Touch of Evil (1958) as the point where we came full circle on noir , basically the snake was eating it's tail by then.

Except you aren't being contrary, Touch of Evil is widely considered by scholars to mark the end of the classic Hollywood film noir period. As for it's start, I look more to I Wake Up Screaming than I do to The Maltese Falcon, although both were filming at roughly the same time.

[Future Man]

Anyone seen Detour? Despite its ultra low budget, it really stays with you.

[Belmondo]

Yes; on the commentary track to I WAKE UP SCREAMING, noir expert Eddie Muller says it is the first film noir. I keep hearing about the movie STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR with Peter Lorre which was released one year earlier (1940) as being the first, but I haven't seen it.

Many critics end the cycle with TOUCH OF EVIL from 1958, but I like the idea of 1955 with KISS ME DEADLY and THE BIG COMBO.

Really looking forward to the new Film Noir Box Set at the end of this month - ten movies, all with commentary tracks. Hope that femme fatale I'm married to doesn't do me in before then.

Edit: yes, I love DETOUR - proof that you don't need much money to make a cool movie.

[HGervais]

If you are reading this asking yourself, what the hell is this film noir thing?.....I direct you to a few books, Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir by Eddie Mueller, A Panorama of American Film Noir 1941-1953 by Raymond Borde & Etienne Chaumeton, any of the Film Noir Reader volumes, of which there are currently four, by Alain Silver & James Ursini and Film Noir Guide by Michael F. Keaney. All are useful & informative.
Movie-wise here is a basic crash course in film noir available on DVD:
I Wake Up Screaming
Double Indemnity
Out of the Past
Laura
Kiss of Death
Nightmare Alley
The Killers
The Set-Up
Night and the City
DOA
The Big Heat
Gun Crazy
The Maltese Falcon
The Narrow Margin
The Big Clock

That is of course just a starter list and I would hope others would continue to populate it.

[B5Erik]

MGM finally released an "official" version of Kansas City Confidential on DVD - and that is a really soid noir.

I'd also say that The Big Sleep is a "must see" noir.

Some other good ones:
Nightmare Alley
Crossfire
Raw Deal
T-Men
Murder My Sweet

That's just off the top of my head, but I'd classify all those as "Must See" Films Noir.

[Belmondo]

And ...

IN A LONELY PLACE (Bogart)
THE STRANGE LOVE OF MARTHA IVERS (Kirk Douglas' film debut)
SCARLET STREET (Fritz Lang)
THEY LIVE BY NIGHT (coming July 31, remade by Robert Altman as THIEVES LIKE US)

[molly1216]

MGM finally released an "official" version of Kansas City Confidential on DVD - and that is a really soid noir.

I'd also say that The Big Sleep is a "must see" noir.

it's surely must see, but it's light on noir. Personally I think the only true solid noir from Bogart was Dark Passage.

[B5Erik]

There are some SERIOUSLY dark, "noir" moments in The Big Sleep. Sure, there's a bit of humor, and Marlowe is the epitome of cool long before James Dean or Steve McQueen, but The Big Sleep is definitely a noir (IMO) - and it's also one of the best movies of all time! It may just barely qualify as a "Film Noir," but I think it legitimately does.

But then there's that 30+ year old debate on what is and isn't Film Noir - and I don't think that debate is ever going to be settled. That's fine with me. There are plenty of movies that are on the edge of belonging in the genre/movement, and I'll watch as many of them as I can!

[molly1216]

There are some SERIOUSLY dark, "noir" moments in The Big Sleep. Sure, there's a bit of humor, and Marlowe is the epitome of cool long before James Dean or Steve McQueen, but The Big Sleep is definitely a noir (IMO) - and it's also one of the best movies of all time! It may just barely qualify as a "Film Noir," but I think it legitimately does.

But then there's that 30+ year old debate on what is and isn't Film Noir - and I don't think that debate is ever going to be settled. That's fine with me. There are plenty of movies that are on the edge of belonging in the genre/movement, and I'll watch as many of them as I can!

I guess i use more of a psychological measuring stick, than anything atmospheric, I say Murder my Sweet is deep dark noir, but Big Sleep only barely. I really like that descritpion about regular folks making bad decisions.

And I totally agree, if you like noir at all, you want to watch everything possible, and then make your own measuring stick. I could Sweel Smell of Success in my noir collection, though other's may not.
this is my noir collection

[maintcoder]

I would consider The Sin of Nora Moran as a proto-noir which deserves mention. The flashback story-telling and the good person caught in a hopeless situation plot seem to ring true in many later noirs.

[The Butcher]

Film Noir: I Wake Up Screaming to Touch of Evil, and every crime film in between (hell, if watch almost any film made between 47 and 51, there are usually large elements of noir woven into the film). Everything else either proto or post. by the early to mid fifties it had become very cliched, but not so far removed from it's natural setting to be anything but noir, just a little more self-aware.

personal faves;
The Killers
Night and the City
Force of Evil
The Lady from Shanghai
Raw Deal

I hate to say this, but I find Out of the Past to be brutally over-rated, I've never found mitchum to be capable of being a legit noir protagonist, at least not the way Widmark, Lancaster or Ryan could be.

And if you're looking for more proto-noirs, you might be very happy looking into the French pre-war poetic-realism films, I was.

[The Butcher]

A couple of other things;

American gangster films prior to '41 can summed up as being "how" films. Where they essentially show what is going on. American noirs post '41 tend to be able to be summed up as being "why" films. Even in some of the more procedural docu-noirs, there is usually a big focus on why what's happening is happening. A lot of reasons for this, and I don't have time go through 'em now, but that's a rule that is hard to find exceptions to.

Also the real nail in the coffin for noir is the Hitchcock's Psycho. It took the cliche to new heights and it's only been that since.