Politics Thread

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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:01 pm

Future Man wrote:Sex is fun, but if you are suggesting that that's the whole ball of wax, well, that's a dim, immature view of the enormity of it, which sadly is more and more common. Anyway, during the time that Bill Clinton was the most powerful man in the world, his illict behavior with a young intern--which did not even bear enough of the suggestion of an actual relationship to 'dignify' it with label of an 'affair'--was a contributing factor in the growth of a disturbing trend of relationship-free premarital sex among young people, to the point that not even a dinner or two is a necessary predicate. You see, authority figures, be they parents or yes, even Presidents (like Honest Abe for instance), are role models for children. If one's parent openly uses illegal drugs in the home, what does the average child come to think about their usage? So you had a whole generation of young people who came of age learning that their President held sex in such low regard that the decision to engage in it or not was of no more import than any other 'fun' activity, and no attempt at a relationship is really even required. Now hear me when I say that Clinton's escapades were not the only factor, and yes societal mores have been in a general decline since the 1960s, but the timing is too close not to acknowledge them as an important ingredient in the rise of this particular trend.

Dude, 90% of my total sleazoid screwing around occurred under Reagan and Bush I, so my whore behavior was their fault then? Ask anybody who came of age in the 90's if they decided it was OK to screw around because of Clinton, and they'll laugh at you. 90% of the kids barely even knew who the President was, let alone let his behavior influence theirs.
However, we better get this stuff under control, because anybody who was in Foley's district now thinks it's OK to lure teenage boys into taking naked pictures of themselves, and anyone in Sanford's area now thinks it's OK to get a South American ho, and the same goes for the poor people of Nevada, who were all obviously of the purest sort, but now are corrupted by Ensign's affair, and how about 90% of the state of Idaho decided that soliciting for gay sex under bathroom stalls is OK because of Craig?
Oh. That's right. Those don't matter because they're Republicans. Yep, hypocrisy, from Future Man? Who would have ever believed it?
The point, which you studiously avoid, as always, is the douchebag lying manwhore known as Sanford, who screamed just about the loudest about Clinton's affair, now seems to think that his virtually identical behavior isn't cause enough for him to step down, despite his lobbying Clinton to. This is hypocrisy. Can you comment on that? Is it, or is it not hypocrisy? Please deal with this, without blaming the liberal media, Bill Clinton, Obama, or any of the other things you try to blame when one of your Republican Holier Than Thou Asswipes winds up being caught with his pants down.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:51 am

My word, of course he should step down and of course he's a hypocrite. The difference to me is, Clinton should have stepped down, because it's not just the hypocricy that makes these only-repentant-when-caught types unfit for office, it's the lack of integrity, the lack of honor, the sense that just because they have power they can do whatever they want. And yes that goes for Republicans same as Democrats across the board for me. So I put it to you Dunny: John Edwards has never been labeled a hypocrite. Would he have been fit for the office of the President knowing what we know now?
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:33 am

TemporalWisdom wrote:I don't regard sex as an activity to enter into lightly due to risk factors such as pregnancy and STDs, but as long as both parties understand and accept the risk, there's no reason not to go for it. Why does it bother you if they don't have dinner first? What exactly is wrong with having some sweaty, naked fun as long as you're careful? I understand if it's not your style, but calling my position a "dim, immature view of the enormity of it" is not called for. Right here, what we were talking about before: the Republican (you, in this case) penchant for telling other people how to run their personal lives. If we have different ideas, you call it "general decline in societal mores."


Obviously it's not the lack of dinner first. Here's what happened: in bygones past, the norm--the thing generally accepted, and therefore having a curbing effect--was no sex before marriage, no living together. That bright line relaxed, and it became well, as long as we love each other, it's ok. Then it became, no sex before x number of dates. Now, as you have helpfully enunciated, and as enforced by the likes of role models like Clinton, not even a date is necessary, you're a primate, I'm a primate, why not. You think this slide has been healthy. I think it has had a devastating effect on society, in terms of not only the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies, but in terms of cheapening an incredibly special thing. I can only hope you will feel more like I do when you are a parent or an uncle or otherwise someone to whom an impressionable young person turns for advice.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby TemporalWisdom » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:31 pm

Future Man wrote:You think this slide has been healthy. I think it has had a devastating effect on society, in terms of not only the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies, but in terms of cheapening an incredibly special thing. I can only hope you will feel more like I do when you are a parent or an uncle or otherwise someone to whom an impressionable young person turns for advice.
You hope in vain. I already have impressionable young people who look up to me: my little cousins. One's 15, the other is 11. They haven't asked, but if they did, I would tell them be careful and be prepared for the worst case scenario. By the latter I mean, if you can't deal with a pregnancy or STD, don't. But I have no problem if the elder, and later the younger, of the two brothers wants to have sex.

Sure, sex can be special. For me it can be a beautifully intimate expression of love with someone I care very much about. But I could conceivably do it just for the fun of it. You're naive if you think such an incredibly pleasurable activity is inseparable from the intimacy of it. The two can be separated, simply because it is pleasurable. That is, there's all the motive in the world to do it whether you love your partner or not. You may not think it's right, but it's certainly reality, and you're not going to win a culture war that puts you on the side opposite from pleasure.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby corkbouy » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:13 pm

Bill's responsible for all the great sex I'm getting now? Even though I was 13 when he left office? And the fact that I've broken up with my boyfriend, and so am dating again?

Thanks Bill!
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:34 pm

So those wacky kids were acting out sexually because of Bill? LOL. You guys kill me. Really. Consider me slayed.

{So I put it to you Dunny: John Edwards has never been labeled a hypocrite. Would he have been fit for the office of the President knowing what we know now?}
Clearly you did not read many newpapers, watch much cable news or lurk around many left-leaning blogs. John Edwards was a douche bag and justly roasted but he had already dropped out and was a candidate for nothing, which in no way justifies his actions. It's funny but I seem to remember the right-wing throwing a hissy on the rare occasion whenever someone dared to mention the GOP's presidential candidate McCain's infidelity. Cue spitting and but "he's a war hero." I could be wrong Mike but I seem to remember some sputtering on your part as well when McCain screwing around on his wife was brought up around here. And really, where was the "liberal" media on that one? If you want to paint liberals as leading everyone down the permissive path then let's be fair and include the hypocrites on your side like Gingrich, Limbaugh, Bob Livingston, Bob Packwood, Ted Haggard, Nevada Gov. Jim Gibbons, John McCain, Mark Sandford, Bush AIDS czar Randall Tobias, John Ensign, David Vitter, Rudy, Mark Foley, Vito Fossela, Larry Craig along with guys like Wild Bill & Gary Hart. And I'm sorry but it does make something worse when the offending parties play the constant game of telling other people how they should live their lives while personally engaging in the same activities they have built their political careers attacking as immoral. So staying with that cause & effect scenario of yours, do you blame Richard Nixon for people breaking into buildings or trying to destory evidence after Watergate?

Is it time for the next outrage yet because I think this one is played out.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:02 am

HGervais wrote:So staying with that cause & effect scenario of yours, do you blame Richard Nixon for people breaking into buildings or trying to destory evidence after Watergate?


Certainly Nixon's actions contributed to a pervading sense that dishonesty is excusable behavior since the top levels of our government do it too but in general I would say no because (1) his were politically motivated and not the kind of transgressions that kids need moral reinforcement to curtail and (2) they were not subject to being dismissed by his own party as those of a rascally rogue/bad boy/boys will be boys/wink wink.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:41 am

Future Man wrote:
HGervais wrote:So staying with that cause & effect scenario of yours, do you blame Richard Nixon for people breaking into buildings or trying to destory evidence after Watergate?


Certainly Nixon's actions contributed to a pervading sense that dishonesty is excusable behavior since the top levels of our government do it too but in general I would say no because (1) his were politically motivated and not the kind of transgressions that kids need moral reinforcement to curtail and (2) they were not subject to being dismissed by his own party as those of a rascally rogue/bad boy/boys will be boys/wink wink.

So in other words, if the actions are committed by a Republican, it's all cool, while you rail and scream and holler about anything done by a Democrat?
Hypocrite. No other word for you.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:51 am

Didn't say that but why would I expect anything different? There's a reason why like minded members don't bother with you guys on this thread anymore and it's not because your cool logic has won them over or that no one here thinks more like me and less like you.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby TemporalWisdom » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:26 pm

Future Man wrote:Didn't say that but why would I expect anything different? There's a reason why like minded members don't bother with you guys on this thread anymore and it's not because your cool logic has won them over or that no one here thinks more like me and less like you.
Who are they?
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:38 am

While we are on the subject of hypocricy, might it not be a valuable use of media resources to investigate the carbon footprint of these genuises in Congress who are trying to impose their values on others through the cap and trade boondoggle? Or at least, take a break from Michal Jackson coverage long enough to explain the pros and cons, perhaps comparing, say, Spain's experience with what we might expect? Or is it all better shoved through with virtually no media investigation save what Fox musters.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:47 am

Future Man wrote:While we are on the subject of hypocricy, might it not be a valuable use of media resources to investigate the carbon footprint of these genuises in Congress who are trying to impose their values on others through the cap and trade boondoggle? Or at least, take a break from Michal Jackson coverage long enough to explain the pros and cons, perhaps comparing, say, Spain's experience with what we might expect? Or is it all better shoved through with virtually no media investigation save what Fox musters.

While we are on the subject of changing the subject and avoiding direct questions.....
OK, here's one for you, which I know you will not answer because you can't, but you just gave a big thumbs up to FOX, yet, you can't reply to my post about their incredibly biased and slanted efforts to paint their own Republicans as Dems when they screw up? Can you respond to THAT? Can you? No, because 1. It utterly and completely destroys your liberal media myth, and 2. Shows FOX to be nothing more than the PR arm of the Republican party, and therefore worthless as a source. It is not a simple mistake, it is a completely intentional attempt to deflect the blame of their party's scumbags, slimeballs, and assorted lecherous douchebags, and pretend like they're Democrats.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:13 pm

Dunnyman wrote:While we are on the subject of changing the subject and avoiding direct questions.....

That is like pointing at the sky and complaining that it is blue. It's what Mike does.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:23 pm

Well, it's unanimous .The Minnesota Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Al Franken. Now we will see if Coleman concedes, Gov. Pawlenty signs the needed certicate and the GOP caucus allows Franken to be seated. Almost 7 months and it looks like Minnesota might finally have full representation in the Senate again and the Dems officially have 60 votes.

And in other news, Mark Sanford lets us know he is an even bigger lying sack of shit hypocrite than he originally admitted to. I blame Bill Clinton.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:25 pm

What dead horse did you want to continue beating Harold? I should name those I know to be of a conservative bent around here who unlike me have wisely decided to ignore this thread and all three members who inhabit it?

You guys should just keep watching MSNBC and NBC Nightly News all the while complaining about Fox.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:49 pm

Future Man wrote:What dead horse did you want to continue beating Harold? I should name those I know to be of a conservative bent around here who unlike me have wisely decided to ignore this thread and all three members who inhabit it?

That is pretty funny coming from you Mike. It is a constant pattern with you. You make a statement or repeat something you heard on Fox or read on NRO and someone refutes it with facts. You ignore that and make another, usually dumber statement that has even less relation to reality than your intial remark and either Dunny or I take the bait and go nuts. You then ignore what we write a second time, ignore those questions we ask you directly while you in turn change the subject and ask a question of us usually based on some strawman scenario of yours with the implication that we are avoiding the subject. It is usually at this point that you make some snide remark questioning our love of country if we have gone after you in too rigourous a fashion. And everyone is avoiding this thread because of us? I really don't know why I still argue with you outside of it is a habit of mine and I don't like reading bullshit treated as if it were factual.

You guys should just keep watching MSNBC and NBC Nightly News all the while complaining about Fox.

Dude...as usual you ignore what you don't want to see. I'm here complaining about almost all the networks. They don't do their job. They are much more conservative than your side wants to admit and on top of that they are lazy. I don't get my news from any of those sources. It's why I spend the time online reading up to a dozen news sites & blogs a day....because I want to actually be informed. I'm curious by nature and don't like having bs fed to me. As for Fox...I have no problem with the rightwing having an open new outlet. Just don't try and lie to everyone by saying it is fair & balanced when it clearly is not. That and I think guys like Glen Beck, Sean Hannity & Bill O"Reilly are bad for the level of political discourse and in some cases, like Glen Beck, are in fact dangerous in what they are stirring up. I support their right to say what they say but it does not mean I can't call it for what it is.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:03 pm

I'll try this one more time and give up.

While we are on the subject of hypocricy, might it not be a valuable use of media resources to investigate the carbon footprint of these genuises in Congress who are trying to impose their values on others through the cap and trade boondoggle? Or at least, take a break from Michal Jackson coverage long enough to explain the pros and cons, perhaps comparing, say, Spain's experience with what we might expect? Or is it all better shoved through with virtually no media investigation save what Fox musters.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:18 pm

Future Man wrote:I'll try this one more time and give up.

While we are on the subject of hypocricy, might it not be a valuable use of media resources to investigate the carbon footprint of these genuises in Congress who are trying to impose their values on others through the cap and trade boondoggle? Or at least, take a break from Michal Jackson coverage long enough to explain the pros and cons, perhaps comparing, say, Spain's experience with what we might expect? Or is it all better shoved through with virtually no media investigation save what Fox musters.

Okay....first off...change the subject much Mike? And second, thanks for agreeing with me that the major broadcast media is broken. On Thursday & Friday cable news devoted 93% of their broadcast time to Michael Jackson's death. As for cap & trade, again this is something I have done quite a lot of reading & research on, and it is something I would advise for everyone...especially you....and what passed the House was actually a starting point...providing it is able to pass the Senate....but that is all that it is. It isn't the end of the world, it isn't the wallet breaker for the average American family that rightwing nes outlets claim it is...it's just a start. What it is is the first real comprehensive and serious attempt at designing this country's energy policy in decades. We can agree or disagree on certain parts of it but it is something that is a long time in coming. Let's see if the Senate has it in them.
Then healthcare where I swear to God, if a Democratic WH, a 77 seat majority in the House and a 20 seat advantage in the Senate can't get real healthcare reform & a public option passed then I'm giving it all up.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:23 pm

Your research led you to discount Spain's experience with it how?
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:33 pm

Future Man wrote:Your research led you to discount Spain's experience with it how?

No but like univeral healthcare in other countries the experiences of one country doesn't tell you what the experience will be in this country. There are so many different variable involved with one country's economy compared to our economy that it quickly becomes a case of apples & oranges. It's helpful and it is useful up to a point but that is all it is. To base an argument that we should not do something because of what has happened in Spain is a pretty shallow one to make.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:11 pm

HGervais wrote:
Future Man wrote:Your research led you to discount Spain's experience with it how?

No but like univeral healthcare in other countries the experiences of one country doesn't tell you what the experience will be in this country.

Too true, sizes, economic strength, etc all factor into how these concepts work. I mean, look at leadership, in 1933 the Germans elected a psychotic maniac and it took him twelve years to utterly ruin the country, our psychotic maniac, Bush, almost completely ruined this one in only eight years. You can't say for certain how these things will work out.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:17 pm

HGervais wrote:Well, it's unanimous .The Minnesota Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Al Franken. Now we will see if Coleman concedes, Gov. Pawlenty signs the needed certicate and the GOP caucus allows Franken to be seated. Almost 7 months and it looks like Minnesota might finally have full representation in the Senate again and the Dems officially have 60 votes.

And in other news, Mark Sanford lets us know he is an even bigger lying sack of shit hypocrite than he originally admitted to. I blame Bill Clinton.

No way, Harold, he came of age during the Reagan years, so lying, etc must have been learned under Ronnie's leadership, don't you know that all young people look up to the President to determine what kind of behavior they should follow? The really scary part is the next generation is going to grow up being un-funky black guys because they learned that behavior from Barack Obama. To think, a whole generation that can't dance to save their lives...
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Ptolemy » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:27 pm

I'm with Harold here. Just because it didn't work in Spain or another country is not a good reason to do nothing here. Unlike some, I believe the science clearly tells us it is necessary to do what we can to lessen or control our impact on the Earth's environment. Having a country like Spain go first and show us what NOT to do is a good thing. We just need to understand what went wrong and avoid the same mistakes. I'm sure we'll make mistakes here too, but hopefully we'll have learned at least some things that don't work.

Same with Healthcare. People waiting for hip replacements in the UK is no good reason for us to allow people to die because they're afraid to rack up bills at the Emergency room here.

For the record: I know nothing of what happened with cap and trade in Spain. From the way you're talking about it, I'm guessing their experience has been less than perfect. But I will attempt to learn more before I post again on the subject. Again - we're not Spain. We need to make sure we understand what went wrong there and be sure we don't set something up here that has the same problems/issues.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:39 pm

On the other end of the spectrum, Carbon trading. What Europe can actually teach us.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:57 am

Shocking. Not So Fair & Totally Unbalanced should be their motto. There is a guest saying what this country needs is another major attack against it and there is Fox's top rated host nodding away. Wow.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:19 pm

Is that typical of the sites you visit in arriving at your assessment of the media?
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby TemporalWisdom » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:37 pm

Future Man wrote:Is that typical of the sites you visit in arriving at your assessment of the media?
Nice deflection. Harold talks about Fox News and you try to turn it into a sweeping statement about the media in general. And what does mediamatters.com have to do with the subject? There's a video. WATCH IT FOR YOURSELF.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:39 pm

Future Man wrote:Is that typical of the sites you visit in arriving at your assessment of the media?

Business as usual...avoid the content and attack the source. Is that supposed to be a defense of what was said or is that supposed to excuse the nature of the comment made? I would be curious as to where you find the site making any kind of editorial comment on its own on what was said, or not said in Beck's case.
And yes, Media Matters is a two or three stop a week for me exactly because of things like that clip. Since you are interested in my reading habits it is worth mentioning that Michelle Malkin, National Review, BuzzFlash, Red State, Andrew Sullivan and quite a few others are all regular stops for me....should I forward you my favorites list Mike so you can shove the implication you were flirting around with somewhere where the sun does not shine?
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:49 pm

Future Man wrote:Is that typical of the sites you visit in arriving at your assessment of the media?

The only thing typical is your attempting to cast aspersions on a very clear matter. FOX had this asswipe saying that American needs to be attacked. FOX's employee, Beck, agrees with this assessment. FOX continually gives airtime to these nuts, and by allowing them to say what they do, and not even attempting to engage them on it (like a true journalist would, Dan Rather would have been all over this guy's ass), their agreement with such insanity is pretty clear. You seem to think FOX is the greatest news organization in the known world, so YOU MUST agree with this sort of shite, no?

Yet, you attempt to diss MediaMatters for simply calling FOX on this crap?

Attempt # 256,478 to get you to respond to FOX's attempts to re-brand Republican douchebags by placing the D next to their names, not like you can respond or have any defense for them, or perhaps you're waiting for Rush or O'Reilly to tell you what your response should be.
I'll assume the latter.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:18 pm

Dan Rather. Enough said.

Did it ever occur to any of you that you three are at least as far left as you consider me to the right, and are therefore just as far outside the mainstream as you perceive me to be--in fact much, much farther? Come to think of it, how long would a full airing of your political views last on Main Street USA (and that's not a coffee shop in Oregon) before you were laughed out of town? Not so long, I'm afraid. And I would still be sitting there sipping a lemonade with everyone nodding in agreement with me. I could give very specific examples as to each of you but I won't.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Ptolemy » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:31 pm

I still think Dan Rather was set up by Rove to make the 'Where was GWB when he was supposed to be serving in the Guard?' story go away.

Regardless of what Rather did, it doesn't excuse Beck for this - or O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Coulter, Huffington, Olbermann, or any of the other shouting heads who need partisan bickering to make thier boat payments for the crap they pull.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:44 pm

Yuo see why Ptolemy's approach is so much more effective? While there's no doubt from his post where his political allegiances lie, and conservatives are clearly the primary target, he nonetheless acknowledges that spokespeople on the left have their share of problems. This makes one seriously consider what he has said, because you think: he's really given this some thought; this is no knee-jerk reaction.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby TemporalWisdom » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:16 pm

Future Man wrote:Dan Rather. Enough said.

Did it ever occur to any of you that you three are at least as far left as you consider me to the right, and are therefore just as far outside the mainstream as you perceive me to be--in fact much, much farther?
Greg, maybe. Harold and me, noooooooo. We both used to identify as Republicans (I still am, officially), and are still further to the right than most Democrats.

Future Man wrote:Come to think of it, how long would a full airing of your political views last on Main Street USA (and that's not a coffee shop in Oregon) before you were laughed out of town? Not so long, I'm afraid. And I would still be sitting there sipping a lemonade with everyone nodding in agreement with me. I could give very specific examples as to each of you but I won't.
Considering the piss-poor job that you do of defending your position and attacking ours, I'm thinking your imagination has run away with you. Either that or by "Main Street USA" You mean the ultra-Republican parts of the Bible Belt where Bush is still beloved. But keep dreaming.

Really...if you imagine you're winning the arguments here, you're even more deluded than I thought.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby TemporalWisdom » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:18 pm

Future Man wrote:Yuo see why Ptolemy's approach is so much more effective? While there's no doubt from his post where his political allegiances lie, and conservatives are clearly the primary target, he nonetheless acknowledges that spokespeople on the left have their share of problems. This makes one seriously consider what he has said, because you think: he's really given this some thought; this is no knee-jerk reaction.
A clear demonstration that you ignore everything we say. We've said a number of times that there are problems on both sides of the aisle.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:07 pm

Future Man wrote:Dan Rather. Enough said.

Did it ever occur to any of you that you three are at least as far left as you consider me to the right, and are therefore just as far outside the mainstream as you perceive me to be--in fact much, much farther? Come to think of it, how long would a full airing of your political views last on Main Street USA (and that's not a coffee shop in Oregon) before you were laughed out of town? Not so long, I'm afraid. And I would still be sitting there sipping a lemonade with everyone nodding in agreement with me. I could give very specific examples as to each of you but I won't.


Not enough said, not nearly enough said. Hmmm...Harold points out a major problem with FOX that was caught by MediaMatters. You ignore it. I point out problems with FOX and repeatedly ask you to reply to it, you ignore it. I point out that you must agree with this assholes opinion that the USA needs to be attacked, and you cannot even answer that without yet another evasion of any points actually raised, and go off on this Main Street USA crap in your typical evading fashion as if my saying Dan Rather had anything to do with it. I could have said Mark Slackmeyer and you would have ignored the point just as well.
Now what the bloody hell does ANY of this have to do with who is mainstream and isn't?
This has to do with your inability to answer any questions when the answers prove you to be wrong or horribly misinformed. This has to do with your ability to run like hell from a point you raise that is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and we call you on it. This has to do with you making some snarky ass remark about Democrats/liberals as a whole (which you do quite often) and then acting like you said nothing at all when we call you on it, and mostly this has to do with you blaming Clinton/liberal media/Obama and anything else you can blame when one of your holier than thou conservative heroes turns out to be a complete piece of lying garbage and we call you on it.

Now you may reply with some insult directed at Obama, or tell me how it's all Clinton's fault for getting a hummer. At least Bill had the decency to do it at his own desk while working and he did it with a real live American ho instead of some sleazebag south American skank, and Bill didn't expect the taxpayers to foot the bill for him going there, either.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Steve T Power » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:38 pm

This thread needs to go away.

There is nothing insightful or intellectual here. It's the same small handful of people chasing each other's tail. You guys are bashing your heads against immovable brick walls, and i for one think it's time we put an end to it.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby TemporalWisdom » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:34 pm

Steve T Power wrote:This thread needs to go away.

There is nothing insightful or intellectual here. It's the same small handful of people chasing each other's tail. You guys are bashing your heads against immovable brick walls, and i for one think it's time we put an end to it.
I'm gonna have to agree. We're not getting anywhere.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:09 pm

Future Man wrote:Dan Rather. Enough said.
A man who was sloppy and got fired over it. Also a douche bag.

Did it ever occur to any of you that you three are at least as far left as you consider me to the right, and are therefore just as far outside the mainstream as you perceive me to be--in fact much, much farther? Come to think of it, how long would a full airing of your political views last on Main Street USA (and that's not a coffee shop in Oregon) before you were laughed out of town? Not so long, I'm afraid. And I would still be sitting there sipping a lemonade with everyone nodding in agreement with me. I could give very specific examples as to each of you but I won't.

Here is what I do know about this current dust-up. If a former CIA employee had gone on Countdown and said the things this guy said and if Olbermann had just nodded in agreement you can bet your bottom dollar that conservatives would be howling in protest, and rightly so. Chances are better than 90% Olbermann would be out there apologizing and would probably be suspended or fired. You know this is true and I know this is true. And you know what? I would want him fired for it as well. What was said & agreed with is outrageous. It's about as unpatriotic & as un-American a statement I have ever heard made on TV and if you were nearly as mainstream as you like to think you are you would have been as outraged as me but instead since its Fox News & Glen Beck, you attack the source which presented the video sans any kind of editorial comment. Being outraged over someone saying what this country needs is another massive 9/11 style attack isn't a right/left thing. It's the decent thing to do. That Glen Beck just goes about his business, and you would appear to be okay with it, tells anyone with an open set of eyes exactly what they need to know because honestly, that you & I can't agree over something as black & white as this, just tells me there really is no common ground between us and that makes me sad. So yeah.
As for all the other stuff and mainstream, main street or whatever...yeah I more or less agree with the policy objectives of President Obama. I don't agree with everything and I'm not sold on all of it but like a majority of Americans I liked what I heard during the campaign enough to vote for him. And like the 60% or so of Americans who approve of the job he is doing I think he needs to be given some time to do his job. How will it all work out? Your guess is as good as mine. All I know is I want what is best for our country and I'm hopeful President Obama will be successful. What I don't think is helpful is to have voices in certain parts of the politcal arena hoping the President fails, for these voices to stir the pot and try to get people angry over matters where they are not being presented with all the facts, or any of the facts at all or to take things several steps too far to come out publically and hope America is attacked again on a massive 9/11 fashion. Again I would think that this would be a common ground area where everyone can agree and I'm sorry if anyone thinks that is me asking too much of other people. I'm here wanting and hoping for the greater good. I'm here thinking we have a real chance to change America in a positive way that leaves this country, this world in a better place tomorrow than it is today. If that makes me some kind of bug-eyed radical, I guess that is something I will just have to live with.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:56 pm

Bye bye Sarah. May we never have to suffer through her antics and her paranoia ever again. GOP nominee in 2012?.....I'm thinking Haley Barbour.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Future Man » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:15 am

Well that was weird. Not ready for prime time at best.

On another other front, at least some quarters of the media are beginning to see the emperor sans clothing...when you sell yourself as Mr. Transparency and then are unfavorably compared with Nixon over your lack of same, by someone who covered both administrations and who has reason to know, maybe the public has some cause for concern?

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/02/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5129482.shtml

I know, I know, we shouldn't have believed what he promised us during the campaign, I never said he wasn't a shrewd politician who will do what it takes to get things done, and isn't shrewdness an admirable trait in and of itself?
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:01 am

I would totally agree with you to a certain respect on the transparency issue. I do think think things are better than what we just came out of and I believe what we are seeing is a classic case of the reality of being in office making the promises of the campaign difficult to achieve. There was such a huge power grab for the executive branch under Bush/Cheney that I would imagine it is tough to want to give those powers back or reduce them. As I noted earlier there are areas where I have problems with what Obama has done and this is one of them. Still, at 6 months or so in I am still in wait & see mode and think he has already achieved too much to be considered emperor-not-having-clothes territory. 6 to 8 months from now and if we have not seen a reduction in unemployment numbers, an elimination of DADT and significant health reform with a public option then I might well be changing my tune. Democratic WH, 77 seat advantage in the House & 60 votes in the Senate? They need to get some major stuff done.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:56 pm

Biden: We misread how bad the economy was. No crap. Sam Stein of the HuffPo rips into the administration.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby chris_mcclinch » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:40 am

Future Man wrote:Did it ever occur to any of you that you three are at least as far left as you consider me to the right, and are therefore just as far outside the mainstream as you perceive me to be--in fact much, much farther? Come to think of it, how long would a full airing of your political views last on Main Street USA (and that's not a coffee shop in Oregon) before you were laughed out of town? Not so long, I'm afraid. And I would still be sitting there sipping a lemonade with everyone nodding in agreement with me. I could give very specific examples as to each of you but I won't.


As a conservative who very occasionally contributes to this thread but has read every word, I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one, Mike. I'd say that Dunnyman is as far outside the mainstream to the left as you are to the right, but I'd say that Harold, Temporal Wisdom, and Ptolemy are all well within the mainstream. Yes, they're on the left side of the mainstream as I'm on the right side of it, but we agree with one another more than we agree with the talking heads of either party. I've seen all three give reasoned criticism and praise of left and right, whereas you and Greg are united in your inability to admit that people of the opposing party can sincerely believe they're doing what's best for the country or that people of your own party can be unprincipled scumbags.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Chris_Sax » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:15 pm

You are scum, McClinch.
pointing out that the simple generalities being forwarded by those who usually are accusing the same thing of some other group was merely that, a point made
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby HGervais » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:12 am

Wendell Potter, a 20 year insurance veteran who was one of the main PR point guys for the industry, has turned whistleblower and lays it all out for Bill Moyers. Watch it now.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby chris_mcclinch » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:48 pm

Chris_Sax wrote:You are scum, McClinch.

Perhaps, but I'm principled scum.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Chris_Sax » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:06 pm

I will military press you into the ceiling.
pointing out that the simple generalities being forwarded by those who usually are accusing the same thing of some other group was merely that, a point made
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:34 pm

Ted Kennedy is gone..... :( :( :( Like him, love him or hate him, you cannot deny that the guy worked hard in the senate, and that he truly could be bipartisan when it came to getting stuff done. No one left like him, and unless I'm missing a name in Congress, he was the last of the old guard. Yer gonna be missed Teddy....
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dan Mancini » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:10 am

Dunnyman wrote:...unless I'm missing a name in Congress, he was the last of the old guard.

I believe Robert Byrd's been in the Senate since the (Andrew) Johnson administration.
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Re: Politics Thread

Postby Dunnyman » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:02 am

Dan Mancini wrote:
Dunnyman wrote:...unless I'm missing a name in Congress, he was the last of the old guard.

I believe Robert Byrd's been in the Senate since the (Andrew) Jackson administration.

Fixed. My bad.
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