2009/2010 TV Watching Thread

[HGervais]

Jay Leno Show...man. I'm sorry I'm sorry for all those folks behind & in front of the camera out of job because NBC is both cheap & risk adverse. Here is hoping this thing flames quickly.
Supernatural s.5....I was not really sold on last year. I didn't like the whole "Dark Sam" and Dean bitched & moaned as much as Buffy Summers did when she got pulled back to earth, did not make for the easiest watching. That said, I'm glad to see Castiel becoming a regular member of the team. The hunt for GOD should at least prove to be interesting and having Lucifier running around should keep things hopping.
I'm going to give Dollhouse another shot and hope Whedon is allowed by Fox to tell the story he wants to.
Last chance for Heroes. It gets two episodes and if not there, is going to get a quick axe.
Chuck....I'm ready for Chuck now but know that might take a little time.
Fringe comes back tomorrow night and hopefully it will be lots of William Bell and lot of alternative reality mind-frakking.
If it's on TV this Fall and beyond, write about here.

[J.M. Vargas]

Technically it's last season (i.e. summer), but the "Big Brother" finale last Tuesday night lifted my spirits. It sucks that _____ got $50K but it was worth it to see the face when Jesse voted the way he did . For once the contestant that needs the money the most gets it, which is rare in reality shows. Michelle is a socially awkward sweetheart but she looked damn sexy on those heels and dress. Jeff is this season's breakout star even if his buying Kevin and Natalie's 'LML' ultimately doomed most of his alliance. Jeff and Jordan (or Jeff and Russell for the LOL's) are so going to be cast in a future season of "The Amazing Race."

[Dunnyman]

Looking forward to:
Supernatural
Fringe
Rita Rocks (go ahead, mock me for liking a Lifetime show)
How I Met Your Mother
My Name Is Earl (oh, that's right, the #@$%^&*$#&% morons at NBC killed it)
V
Hank

[Stubblecat]

I'm jazzed for Dollhouse. I'm halfway through the first season right now. I was afraid that it might suck after the first hadful of episodes, but then it kicks in and now I'm hooked. I was surprised that it started to show a huge emotional weight to it. Almost snuck up on me.

[cdouglas]

I may or may not get a bit behind on these due to my schedule, but I'm particularly looking forward to...

Fringe
Dollhouse
The Office
30 Rock
V
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Bored to Death

[Steve T Power]

I may or may not get a bit behind on these due to my schedule, but I'm particularly looking forward to...

V

WHAT???
OK, so lets pretend i live under a rock where all things TV are concerned, and someone give me the rundown on this thing. V was DO NOT MISS TV for us when we were tykes.

[cdouglas]

I may or may not get a bit behind on these due to my schedule, but I'm particularly looking forward to...

V

WHAT???
OK, so lets pretend i live under a rock where all things TV are concerned, and someone give me the rundown on this thing. V was DO NOT MISS TV for us when we were tykes.

From Wikipedia: V is an upcoming television series remake to be broadcast on ABC during the mid season of the 2009-2010 television season. It is executive produced by The 4400 creator Scott Peters, Jace Hall, Steve Pearlman and Jeffrey Bell and is based on the science-fiction franchise created by Kenneth Johnson. The series will premiere on November 3, 2009.

Giant spaceships appear over all major cities of the world, the alien "Visitors" claiming to come in peace. As some humans begin to doubt the sincerity of the Visitors, Homeland Security agent Erica Evans discovers that the aliens have spent decades infiltrating human governments and businesses and are now in the final stages of their plan to take over the planet. Erica joins the resistance movement, which includes Ryan, a Visitor sleeper agent who wants to save humanity. However, the aliens have won favor among the people of Earth by curing a variety of diseases, and have recruited Earth's youth, including Erica's son, to serve unknowingly as spies.

The cast list was officially announced by ABC on May 19, 2009:[3]

Elizabeth Mitchell as Erica Evans
Morris Chestnut as Ryan Nichols
Joel Gretsch as Father Jack Landry
Lourdes Benedicto as Valerie Stevens
Logan Huffman as Tyler Evans
Morena Baccarin as Anna, the leader of the Visitors
Laura Vandervoort as Lisa, a Visitor
Scott Wolf as Chad Decker, a reporter
Alan Tudyk as Dale Maddox (FBI investigator); Tudyk stars in the pilot episode,[4] but was not listed as a main cast member by ABC.

Looks quite promising, considering the cast and the strong early buzz surrounding the show.

[Steve T Power]

Just saw two trailers, on about a minute and a half and one about 3 minutes - this looks awesome! like Battlestar awesome.

[HGervais]

So question about last night's Fringe season two premiere...if what we think we know about Peter Bishop is true....that Walter, stricken with grief over Peter dying as child, crossed over into the other universe and kidnapped that version of Peter to raise as his own son.....then does that mean Peter has special talents like the shape-shifting soldier featured on last night's episode? And if so, what are they? Good episode last night. It didn't have the scope of last year's pilot but it stayed interesting and asked even more questions. Like the new FBI agent and liked how they made Charlie a much more interesting character.

[HGervais]

Set those DVRs...Dollhouse is back for its unexpected second season tonight.

[azul017]

No one's actually watching It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia or The Big Bang Theory? Shameful, those are actual sitcoms that are funny.

[J.M. Vargas]

^^^ Maybe not in this forum but elsewhere "Philadelphia" and "Big Bang" are scoring massive rating increases from last year. "Big Bang Theory" is actually about to overtake "Two And a Half Men" as the most watched sitcom on television (it already has in the coveted 18-49 demo): http://pifeedback.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63310451/m/305102442.

[booklover]

[quote="HGervais"]Jay Leno Show...man. I'm sorry I'm sorry for all those folks behind & in front of the camera out of job because NBC is both cheap & risk adverse. Here is hoping this thing flames quickly.
.quote]
I enjoy Jay's monologue and usually the interview with his first guest, but after that, I lose interest and turn it off.

[Dunnyman]

New stuff so far:
Brothers: Very good, and nice to see Daryl Mitchell back on TV, he was always great on the John Larroquette Show. CCH Pounder is also stealing scenes like nobody's business.
Modern Family: Ed O'Neill's back. It's funny, it's quick, and Sofia Veragara is incredibly hot. And funny.
The Middle: Kinda generic, but has hopes, the two leads are likeable, and I'll give it a chance.
Hank: Some great jokes, some quick wit, but Hank is simply another Frasier Crane. Make him a little different, or else this one will sink like a stone because it's not unique enough as it is.

[BrettCullum]

Hate to admit this, but I am truly liking GLEE. I wondered after the pilot how they could make a series about a struggling show choir program, but it is turning out to be surprisingly smart and funny as hell. Doesn't hurt it is from the guy behind NIP/TUCK and has Jane Lynch in the cast as a mean as hell cheerleading coach out to get everybody. If anything you should at least do a search on YouTube for the sequence where an entire football team decides to do the Beyonce Dance from "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)" which was one of the best physical comedy routines ever created for television. What I thought might just be HIGH SCHOOL THE MUSICAL has turned out to be more WAITING FOR GUFFMAN or BEST IN SHOW.

VARGAS - I wasn't too thrilled Jordan won BIG BROTHER from a game play standpoint. It seemed this year was all about being a "floater", and anybody who actually tried any form of strategy got bounced out of the house on their butt. This "game" needs to be rethought out somehow to make it more strategic. All that said, I did appreciate Jordan won and what that meant for her mom and siblings. I was so happy to think the show saved a family who needed the money.

I am definitely tuning in to V when it hits the airwaves.

I am bad, I gave up last year on DOLLHOUSE after only a handful of episodes.

I also ditched HEROES after the first part of last season concluded it's VILLAINS story arc. It just stopped doing anything for me. Any thoughts on this year?

I'm watching way too many reality shows this year. What up with that?

[J.M. Vargas]

I also ditched HEROES after the first part of last season concluded it's VILLAINS story arc. It just stopped doing anything for me. Any thoughts on this year?

Based on the first three episodes (particularly the third, "Ink") "Heroes" is staging a mini-comeback for viewers with lowered expectations. Claire's storyline still sucks (they always have) but it's setting up a lesbian subplot/crush between her and "Californication's" Madeline Zima that has brought the character from annoying to tolerable. Problem is that Noah/HRG is so far tied too closely to the Claire storyline, thus he's not being used to his fullest potential. Tracy is a mystery (very few scenes) and Mohinder is MIA (he turns up next week for the first time). Robert Knepper (T-Bag from "Prison Break") and his ilk are so far neither annoying or appealing as the new guys (which are neither villains or new heroes) but just mysterious-enough to keep us guessing, and watching. Ray Park as a "Flash"-type knife-wielding assassin is the return for Darth Maul for geeks, but so far he's been barely seen. The biggest surprise is that Sylar's, Peter Petrelli's and Parkman's storylines have become compelling and actually worth investing time in... so far. Peter in particular has become the sort of character many of us wanted to see the show develop after Season 1: an actual hero. Hiro, Ando and Nathan are, well, Hiro, Ando and Nathan (you know what you're gonna get with these three).

I'm not saying "Heroes" is appointment television or anything like that, but so far the first three chapters have slowed down the maniac, anything-goes style of S3 and gone back to being character-driven fantastic stories. A new 'hero' was introduced on "Ink" last Monday and the way it was done was a recall of how in S1 the characters were coming to grips with their new powers, which was cool. If you have three hours to kill check the new episodes on Hulu or NBC.com because, to everyone's surprise, "Heroes" isn't as crappy as its ratings indicate (which means this will likely be the show's final season). I'm liking it but you might need to watch a recap of the last volume of "Heroes" before this year's new episodes to understand exactly what the deal is with Nathan and Parkman. Did I mention Zeljko Ivanek appeared on the 2nd half of "Heroes" S3 as a hunter of people with powers?

[tucco]

The Office
30 Rock
Curb Your Enthusiasm

I'm glad they're marrying Jim and Pam early in the season instead of doing the traditional thing and stretch that arc the whole season.......It would only interrupt how the show has gotten back to it's former spontaneity.

[Kenneth Morgan]

Anyone else watching "House" this season? I thought the first couple of shows were good, and I'm glad it looks like Andre Braugher is apparently going to continue as House's psychiatrist. Last night's show really threw me for a loop, though. I won't go any further, for those who didn't see it, but I'm really interested in seeing how it plays out.

[J.M. Vargas]

ABC orders full seasons of "Modern Family," "The Middle" and "Cougar Town" (all Wednesday comedies; "Hank" getting poor ratings): http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ieb794c2afa55454167e9988cb0671e98.

CBS orders full seasons of "NCIS: LA" and "The Good Wife" (both Tuesday dramas): http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/357183-CBS_Picks_Up_NCIS_Good_Wife_.php.

NBC cancels "Southland" before its 2nd season premiere ("Dateline NBC" takes over): http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118009738.html?categoryid=14.

[Dan Mancini]

ABC orders full seasons of "Modern Family," "The Middle" and "Cougar Town".

Cougar Town. I mean, seriously, it's only a matter of time before one of the networks actually makes a show called MILF Island.

[Dunnyman]

ABC orders full seasons of "Modern Family," "The Middle" and "Cougar Town" (all Wednesday comedies; "Hank" getting poor ratings): http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ieb794c2afa55454167e9988cb0671e98.

Well, Hank's pretty weak, and not overly original, The Middle's not bad, and I haven't seen Cougar Town, but Modern Family is simply genius, but Steven Levitan knows how to do smart comedy. Ty Burrell should become a big star in this.
Now did anyone else watch South Park last night? Despite the wave of lawsuits that will follow this episode, it was simply hysterically funny. Must see viewing. After you get back with your food from Chipotle, that is.

[cdouglas]

I'm glad Modern Family is doing well. I've really enjoyed the first few episodes. Smart, funny television that manages to be sincere without becoming too sentimental.

[Mach6]

Now did anyone else watch South Park last night? Despite the wave of lawsuits that will follow this episode, it was simply hysterically funny. Must see viewing. After you get back with your food from Chipotle, that is.

It wasn't all hysterically funny, but when Ike was possessed by 1 of the "dead celebrities", that alone made me give this episode a thumbs up. Also, I now know what purgatory is going to be like, so I better be a good person. Season 13 has been superior to season 12 so far.

[Bryan Pope]

...but Modern Family is simply genius, but Steven Levitan knows how to do smart comedy. Ty Burrell should become a big star in this.

I can't remember laughing that hard at a tv show in a long time. And when I wasn't laughing, I was grinning from ear to ear.

[J.M. Vargas]

Cast of NBC's "Celebrity Apprentice 3" leaked by the NY Post: http://www.nypost.com/f/print/entertainment/tv/celebrity_apprentice_cast_revealed_blQSVcPH8a85WAoL0Rnw3H

Darryl Strawberry, ex-Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich , Sinbad, Cyndi Lauper, Sharon Osbourne, Bret Michaels, Holly Robinson Peete, Carol Leifer, Wrestlers Goldberg and Maria Kanellis, Australian celebrity chef Curtis Stone and Olympic gold-medal swimmer Summer Sanders.

[Dunnyman]

So far, Modern Family is the best freshman show out there. Four rock solid episodes, great development, a very funny guest spot by Shelley Long, and it looks like it's only going to get even better. The Middle is already falling off, they put the best jokes in the first few episodes, Hank should have the plug pulled any day now, it's just weeeeak. Brothers is getting better as it goes, and building a show around an ex-athlete has worked pretty well, Strahan's got good timing, and he's naturally pretty funny. My big surprise on the DVR has been Eastwick. Rebecca Romjin, who normally annoys the hell out of me, is very good as the "did she or didn't she kill her husband" bad girl, Lindsay Price's nerdy reporter is great comic relief and Paul Gross is obviously having fun as the devilish Darryl Van Horne and he's been missed on TV. If the network lets this one find it's audience it could be a solid hit. Hot babes for the guys, hot guys for the girls, interesting storylines and witchcraft? It's pretty darn good so far.
And yes, Parker and Stone hit a solid triple with men in scoring position this week as Butters gets into the pimping business. Not to be missed.

[Bryan Pope]

My big surprise on the DVR has been Eastwick. Rebecca Romjin, who normally annoys the hell out of me, is very good as the "did she or didn't she kill her husband" bad girl, Lindsay Price's nerdy reporter is great comic relief and Paul Gross is obviously having fun as the devilish Darryl Van Horne and he's been missed on TV. If the network lets this one find it's audience it could be a solid hit. Hot babes for the guys, hot guys for the girls, interesting storylines and witchcraft? It's pretty darn good so far.

I'm a fan of John Updike's book and, to a lesser extent, the 1987 movie, so I thought I'd give this one a shot. I'd say it's guilty pleasure viewing, much in the same way Savannah was back in the late '90s. Great production values, a game cast and entertaining stories make it a reasonably good soap.

[cdouglas]

Count me in as part of the crowd who considers Eastwick a guilty pleasure. No, it's not as strong as either Updike's book or George Miller's film, but it's a pleasant diversion. I hope it lasts; ratings have apparently been quite weak.

[Dunnyman]

I'm a fan of John Updike's book and, to a lesser extent, the 1987 movie, so I thought I'd give this one a shot. I'd say it's guilty pleasure viewing, much in the same way Savannah was back in the late '90s. Great production values, a game cast and entertaining stories make it a reasonably good soap.

The production values are top notch, but eagle eyed viewers have already picked out numerous locations that were also part of Stars Hollow in Gilmore Girls...

[J.M. Vargas]

NBC picks-up Community, Mercy & Park and Recreation for the rest of the season: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118010353.html?categoryId=14&cs=1&cache=false.

[Observer]

Community has been my favorite new show this year, so pretty thrilled about that.

[J.M. Vargas]

NBC orders six additional episodes (19 total) of "Chuck" for its upcoming third season (which might debut in January if one or more of NBC's many struggling shows gets axed, probably "Trauma" on Monday nights): http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/nbc-considering-more-chuck-.html

[J.M. Vargas]

And, speaking of the devil, NBC cancels "Trauma": http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/nbc-cancels-trauma-.html

[Jon Mercer]

ABC orders full seasons of "Modern Family," "The Middle" and "Cougar Town".

Cougar Town. I mean, seriously, it's only a matter of time before one of the networks actually makes a show called MILF Island.

I hope one of the challenges is the perilous climb up to the precipice of Castle Von Poon.

[J.M. Vargas]

ABC passes on ordering additional episodes (besides the initial 13-episode order) for "Witches of Eastwick": http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17506214#post17506214. It's as close as a network comes to canceling a show without actually doing so, which means after the 13th episode airs "Eastwick" joins "Trauma" as dead shows.

[molly1216]

ABC passes on ordering additional episodes (besides the initial 13-episode order) for "Witches of Eastwick": http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17506214#post17506214. It's as close as a network comes to canceling a show without actually doing so, which means after the 13th episode airs "Eastwick" joins "Trauma" as dead shows.

mixed feelings
i thought it stunk but that never stopped networks before...but i do think Paul Gross needs a tv show IN THE US...why should the canadians keep hogging him?

[Dunnyman]

Recently discovered a new show called Tosh.0, hosted by Daniel Tosh, and this thing is the perfect show for me, he shows web clips and mocks the living shit out of them, being 100% politically incorrect, rude, sarcastic and a total smartass. The show also features short clips created by celebrities and comedians, and features the "Web Redemption" whereupon someone who's million viewing clip leaves them looking retarded gets a chance to make it right. Miss South Carolina fails miserably in her second attempt, and the infamous "Leave Britney alone!" clown also fails in spectacular fashion. Simply brilliant. It's also an excellent tie-in to the web as certain clips can't be shown on TV, but you see the crowd's reaction, however, the clip is on the website!
Modern Family is still superb, and so far has the funniest line of the season "He went to Pablo Escobar Elementary, and if you got pulled out of class it usually meant you had to identify the bodies!" The show is also perfectly cast, with each character nailing their roles quickly. This one might be around for a good long time I hope.
Sad to see Eastwick get the axe, but hopefully they can tie it up neatly. I'll just chalk it up to the ever-growing list of shows the networks killed too soon.
It's also sad to see Monk ending. It's been one of the most consistently superb shows on TV since day one, but they're right to quit while it's still great. However, there's every reason to believe a once a year or even twice a year TV movie isn't out of the question.

[HGervais]

It's also sad to see Monk ending. It's been one of the most consistently superb shows on TV since day one, but they're right to quit while it's still great. However, there's every reason to believe a once a year or even twice a year TV movie isn't out of the question.

Even Lt. Columbo & Jim Rockford knew when to hang it up. Which of course means we will eventually get some good but not as great as the TV show movies.

[J.M. Vargas]

ABC cancels "Hank": http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/11/abc-axes-hank.html.

[molly1216]

Dollhouse gets cancelled
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/con ... 3b11c6126a

[Mach6]

I know I might be in the "minority" on this, but last night's episode of South Park was the funniest in years. Cartman's "Minorities" song was hilarious & brilliant (in a twisted way), all the 2012 references, the monkey experiments, & how much people pee in certain places. (I pee in the shower too, so shut up Kyle.) Matt & Trey still got it. I hope they can make it to Season #15.

[Dunnyman]

I know it aired weeks ago, but I finally got around to finishing up Monk. Yes, I know, M.A.S.H. lasted longer, and had one of the biggest audiences ever for it's finale, but it wasn't this good, or even close to this moving and intense. Tony Shalhoub should win the Emmy for this episode alone, with Traylor Howard, and Ted Levine also picking up their own awards if there's any justice in the Emmys. Tears, cheers, suspense, laughs, and the absolutely compelling finish to an incredible eight years. I stated earlier that I'd be looking forward to some TV movies every now and again, but after this, they don't need to. It's that good. Oh yes, and I can't forget Randy Newman's song that finishes it all off, quite moving in it's own right.

[J.M. Vargas]

ABC cancels "Ugly Betty": http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/01/its-the-end-of-the-mode-abcs-ugly-betty-will-wrap-its-run-in-april.html. Last episode (a proper series finale) will air in April.

[Dunnyman]

ABC cancels "Ugly Betty": http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/01/its-the-end-of-the-mode-abcs-ugly-betty-will-wrap-its-run-in-april.html. Last episode (a proper series finale) will air in April.

A question? When a show gets cancelled, do they get enough time to revamp the episodes still to be filmed for the most part? My guess is Ugly Betty's got a enough lead time to set up the series finale, but what about others?

Still digging Glee, which has gotten better with each episode so far, and as each character gets some limelight, the brilliance of the casting is more and more obvious. How is it doing, ratings wise?

[cdouglas]

ABC cancels "Ugly Betty": http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/01/its-the-end-of-the-mode-abcs-ugly-betty-will-wrap-its-run-in-april.html. Last episode (a proper series finale) will air in April.

A question? When a show gets cancelled, do they get enough time to revamp the episodes still to be filmed for the most part? My guess is Ugly Betty's got a enough lead time to set up the series finale, but what about others?

It varies from series to series. Some shows are just cut off abruptly without enough warning (The Riches), some just try to tack on a quick epilogue to make things feel less awkward (Pushing Daisies), others are given enough advance warning to bring their story to a close (Dollhouse, which ends tomorrow). Personally, I really wish that networks would put more consideration into allowing showrunners to bring some sense of closure to a series, because there are few things more frustrating for a fan than to follow an ongoing saga from week to week and then for it just to get cut off without any sense of resolution.

[J.M. Vargas]

^^^ In the case of "Ugly Betty" the writing's been on the wall since late last season when its ratings mojo faded, then it became clear the show was dead when (a) the new Friday slot was yielding abysmal viewership and (b) a move to Wednesday to improve the ratings didn't do much. But news accounts say that the producers were told of the show's cancelation when they were ready to work on the show's last four episodes, so it worked out OK. Usually though most shows that get canned just stop dead where they are. "The Smurfs" are still lost in time (where the last season ended), David Banner never found a cure for his "Hulk" disease (which is how the show's creator wanted to end "The Incredible Hulk") and technically Dr. Sam Becket is still out there leaping from person to person (even after his talk with God at that bar). C'est la vie!

[molly1216]

i never could stomach Ugly Betty..it's one of those shows where i want to kill the cast.

Everything new i watch these days is on Hulu or Netflix. I am thrilled that Supernatural has been renewed even if it goes nowhere...right now it's the only show it would me upset if i missed.

I did catch the new Spartacus and all it did was make me want to rewatch Rome...it was CGI gore and a Russ Meyer level fascination with breasts.

This si the 1st time i have tried watching 24 weekly as it is presented and i tell you i don't like it. I have become so used to watching this type of show and this one in particular in a marathon, that watching from week to week with commercials is tedious and boring...not enough jack for the wait if you know what i mean..i can't fast forward through everyone else's soap opera.

On Netflix instant watch I watched every episode of Dirty Jobs and rewatched all of Tony Bourdain's No Reservations and am now rewatching all 4 seasons of Doctor Who reboot for the 5th time.
on Hulu I do keep up with Bones, House, Castle and Fringe.

If you haven't tasted it...Human Target has a very 80s silly caper nonsense logic sensibility...Burn Notice is much better.

[J.M. Vargas]

David S. Goyer quits as showrunner of ABC's "Flashforward"; will concentrate on the screenplay for Nolan's next "Batman" movie: http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/flashforward-showrunner-exits-for-features/. Not good news for the heir apparent of "Lost" (or is that the new "V"? ) to be on its third showrunner before its first season has even finished shooting for the year.

[molly1216]

god help me i watched another episode of Spartacus blood and sand....please make it stop...it's like bad porn crossed with anime no wait that's redundant. is ANYONE watching this? i mean what channel does it run on? how did they get john hannah to do this? does he owe a lot of money to the producers or something? and HOW does one round up that many body builders? wait never mind i DON'T want to know.

[J.M. Vargas]

^^^ Ratings report: "Spartacus" is killing (for Starz) with ratings approaching a million viewers per episode; "Crapica" sinks to almost below one million viewers for the premiere of its latest episode: http://www.thrfeed.com/2010/02/spartacus-caprica-continue-ratings-trends-.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+live_feed+%28The+Hollywood+Reporter+-+The+Live+Feed%29. Happy Joyce?