Michael Vick Indicted

[HGervais]

If guilty I can't imagine a bigger case of pissing-everything-away-over-something-really-stupid than this one. Vick Indicted Over Dog-Fighting. I'm really curious as to what Roger Goodell will do with someone as high-profile as Vick, not to mention what Falcons owner Arthur Blank will do.

[molly1216]

i don't carry what this bozo does on the field....they will cut him loose as soon as they can....football is huge with the red state christian family nascar folks who won't forgive that - drugs, hookers, violence but not that.

personally i'd like to peel his skin off his body with my pocket knife.

[HGervais]

personally i'd like to peel his skin off his body with my pocket knife.

providing he is guilty as charged of course.

[IChiWawa]

From the 18 page indictment:

"In or about April of 2007, Peace, Phillips and Vick executed approximately eight dogs that did not perform well in 'testing' sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road by various methods, including hanging, drowning and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground."

If he is guilty, he better be looking at time behind bars and not just being kicked out of the NFL.

[Dan Mancini]

i don't carry what this bozo does on the field....they will cut him loose as soon as they can....football is huge with the red state christian family nascar folks who won't forgive that - drugs, hookers, violence but not that.

1. That's a ridiculously broad statement (since when do NASCAR fans dig dogfighting? Cockfights, sure, but dogfighting? No. <---that's a joke, so don't even start with me, NASCAR people).
2. You're apparently not aware of Goodell's There's-a-New-Sheriff-In-Town approach to discipline. Vick's screwed -- as he rightly should be (living in ATL, I've seen enough of this story to believe there's about a 95% chance Vick's guilty. And if Vick isn't, then Ron Mexico sure as hell is).
3. I might -- might -- agree with you if Vick was a quarterback who actually, you know, won games and stuff. Considering he's a bundle of unrealized and rapidly-aging potential, I'm not sure his fame will save him.
4. IChiWawa's right: I hope the folks at the NFL aren't the only ones who take action. Jail time needs to be served.

[molly1216]

i don't carry what this bozo does on the field....they will cut him loose as soon as they can....football is huge with the red state christian family nascar folks who won't forgive that - drugs, hookers, violence but not that.

1. That's a ridiculously broad statement (since when do NASCAR fans dig dogfighting? Cockfights, sure, but dogfighting? No. <---that's a joke, so don't even start with me, NASCAR people).

please reread what i typed....i was SAYING that unlike other accepted NFL bad behavior, even dogfighting and torture doesn't sit well with them...or indeed with anyone with a soul.

[reefa]

2. You're apparently not aware of Goodell's There's-a-New-Sheriff-In-Town approach to discipline. Vick's screwed -- as he rightly should be (living in ATL, I've seen enough of this story to believe there's about a 95% chance Vick's guilty. And if Vick isn't, then Ron Mexico sure as hell is).

Thanks for the Ron Mexico reference Dan, made my day.

[Dan Mancini]

i don't carry what this bozo does on the field....they will cut him loose as soon as they can....football is huge with the red state christian family nascar folks who won't forgive that - drugs, hookers, violence but not that.

1. That's a ridiculously broad statement (since when do NASCAR fans dig dogfighting? Cockfights, sure, but dogfighting? No. <---that's a joke, so don't even start with me, NASCAR people).

please reread what i typed....i was SAYING that unlike other accepted NFL bad behavior, even dogfighting and torture doesn't sit well with them...or indeed with anyone with a soul.

Gotcha. The days of being able to act like a jackass off the field (whether drugging, frequenting hookers, or running a dogfighting biz on the side) appear to over, though. This thuglife crap is getting on everyone's nerves. Goodell's clearly had enough, and when he suspended Pac Man Jones for the entire season because of his love of firearms in public places, like, over 80% of the player's union was happy about it. The vast majority of football players are linemen who live relatively normal lives and are getting more and more pissed at being associated with high-profile players with a penchant for criminal behavior.

I'm with Harold. I'm curious to see what happens. Goodell has a chance here to send a message that's even louder and clearer than the Pac Man Jones message he sent a few months ago. I hope he does.

Thanks for the Ron Mexico reference Dan, made my day.

Ole!

[reefa]

I'd guess they'll wait until how the trial starts panning out. Based on the indictment, Goodell might not even have to make that decision, there's 4 who will testify against him now, plus the Feds are on the case, he's probably looking at jailtime of some sort, unless he pleads out.

So depending on that will be how hard the suspension is, but I'd guess that anything less than a year with reinstatement application would be a shite judgment. Not many people know who Pacman Jones is, but Vick is one of the marketing faces of the league. At least one can grab Joey Harrington as a fantasy backup QB if need be.

[reefa]

On an unrelated topic, so can we rename the AYGBAD section of the site the "Bad Newz Kennel"?

[Dan Mancini]

On an unrelated topic, so can we rename the AYGBAD section of the site the "Bad Newz Kennel"?

Ron Mexico approves. Ole!

[Dunnyman]

Yet another gangster goes down. How much do you want to bet we're going to get tearful apologies, "i made some bad choices", etc, etc. I hope he's kicked out of the league forever and spends much time in prison.

[The Omen]

This entire story is disgusting. I hope he gets tied to that 'breeding pole' and a-f'd until he passes out.

And yes, he does suck as a QB as well.

[HGervais]

And yes, he does suck as a QB as well.

As someone who has to suffer through Vick twice a year now ever since he came into the league let me say what I always say, no quarterback plays running back better.

[Dignan]

Oh Michael, why can't you be more like your brother?

And for the record, the verdict is in. Vick sucks as a QB. I don't care what anyone says. If I was coaching, I'd have him at WR.

[IChiWawa]

From the AP

"Nike has no plans to dump Michael Vick as one of its celebrity athletes, and has turned aside a Humane Society request to cut links with the Atlanta Falcons quarterback over alleged ties to dogfighting."


and from Sportsbiz

"Vick's signature shoe, the Nike Air Zoom Vick IV D, is currently on the shelves selling for $84.99. The "D" stands for detachable. The Zoom Vick V is scheduled to launch in two colorways on August 23 and the suggested retail price is $100. The shoes will likely arrive at retailers in three weeks."

[reefa]

From PFT. Not news, but a pretty convincing "suspend now" argument.

"Meanwhile, the more we think about this, the more we believe that doing nothing is not a realistic option for the league or the Falcons. This is not a run-of-the-mill marijuana possession case. Nor is it a he-said, she-said in which Vick's version of the events can be accepted until proven otherwise.

This is a situation in which 17 dead dogs, 54 live ones, and extensive dog fighting equipment and pharmaceuticals were removed from property OWNED BY Michael Vick. Though the Falcons and the NFL might not be privy to the full scope of the information (and, given that the team was under the false impression that Vick wouldn't be indicted, it might be prudent to get new sources), the indictment makes clear that Vick's "I'm never there" routine is and was a flat-out lie.

The only way that Vick's "I'm never there" line has any credence is if the four cooperating witnesses committed perjury before the grand jury, or if the feds are fabricating the allegations without regard to the fact that, at trial, they'll be publicly embarrassed when the truth comes out.

The feds simply don't operate that way. They wouldn't allege that Vick was directly involved (and, thus, at and on the property) if they weren't sure that they could prove it in open court.

So everyone -- media, fans, Falcons, NFL, everyone -- needs to lose the Duke lacrosse paralysis and apply some common sense. Whether or not he is acquitted, Vick has (through intentional misbehavior or otherwise) single-handedly done more damage to the NFL shield than any of the other players who have been arrested or suspended since at least Rae Carruth, and perhaps ever. Vick is the biggest name in the NFL to face criminal charges while still in the league, and these are some of the most heinous and despicable charges that anyone could face, short of rape or murder.

Here's another thing that is bothering us. If Vick were on the practice squad, would we even be having the discussion about what the league should do? Vick would be long gone and forgotten, like alleged Steelers pimp Richard Seigler and every other bottom-roster turd that was dumped at the first hint of trouble.

And what if any of us had just been indicted in federal court for conspiracy to maintain an interstate gambling enterprise and dog fighting operation, with allegations that 17 dog carcasses had been found on property we owned, and that we participated in killing eight of them? Would we be sitting cozy in our cubicles today?

Mike Vick is clearly getting the star treatment here from the NFL and the Falcons. And it's wrong. The irony is that, given his performances of late on the football field, he's really not a star anymore. "

[J.M. Vargas]

I can't believe there's still prejudice against pitbulls and other breeds of dogs when are people like Vick that incite and turn these usually friendly animals into beasts. I mean, how can someone torture and/or kill dogs (except for animal control regulations that force some of them to be put down) by hanging them or smashing their heads against pavement? That's barbaric and, ironically, could have gotten Vick a reputation in the old NFL as a man to be feared. Alas, if the NFL doesn't do substantial damage to Vick's pocket book (via suspension, financial penalty or more) they will incur the ire of animal lovers. And as someone that works for a woman that puts her pitbull dog above most Earthly things trust me, you don't want these people when they're on a bad mood on your case. Right molly?

[IChiWawa]

I guess Nike is getting so much grief that they now say Vick's new shoe will NOT be released in August. Just heard this on WFAN.

That's one sh*tload of shoes to warehouse.

[The Omen]

I guess Nike is getting so much grief that they now say Vick's new shoe will NOT be released in August. Just heard this on WFAN.

That's one sh*tload of shoes to warehouse.

Luckily they only cost $.50 to make.

I can't believe there's still prejudice against pitbulls and other breeds of dogs when are people like Vick that incite and turn these usually friendly animals into beasts.

Some of the best, well behaved animals I have ever been around are pitbulls. Because I don't hang around a bunch of gangster idiots who beat them until they'll bite just about anyone or anything. I heard someone recently on the radio who wanted to eradicate the entire breed. I initially agreed, until I realized she was talking about the dog.

[IChiWawa]

Luckily they only cost $.50 to make.

Well then I guess that if the rumor is true that Nike will donate the entire stock to animal shelters as chew toys it won't be such a harsh hit.

[HGervais]

Nice breakdown of the charges in lay terms via ESPN.

[IChiWawa]

I hope he loves his daughter more than he loved his dogs.

"I Love My Dogs"

[mkiker2089]

For some reason all this still doesn't quite sink in. How can a person who has so much be so stupid? What's the appeal to watching dogs attack each other? How can a person kill a dog in the ways he did?

Even beyond all that when he started loosing money in the 10's of thousands why did he hang in there?

[Dunnyman]

How can a person kill a dog in the ways he did?(

Because he is a piece of shit. Prison is too good for him, dip him in A1 Sauce and feed him to a horde of starving street dogs. After you break both of his legs so he can't use his fabled running ability to get out of it.

[maintcoder]

It seems, according to the AP, the NFL commissioner Goodell ordered Vick to stay away from the Falcon's training camp, pending a review of the situation by the NFL.

The story on SI.com

[jcankerhuxley]

i don't carry what this bozo does on the field....they will cut him loose as soon as they can....football is huge with the red state christian family nascar folks who won't forgive that - drugs, hookers, violence but not that.

personally i'd like to peel his skin off his body with my pocket knife.

I have seen both dog and cock fighting in the Malaysia and Indonesia. Not to many redneck christain NASCAR types there. If I remember correctly, about 90 percent of the population were those laid back, pot smoking, porn loving, Zappa listening Muslims that we all hear about and idol like rock stars. Seriously, I think the way they treat their women surely makes up for any sins against the animal world.

Heck, who are we to argue with their traditions? That would be racist and hateful against Muslims and Asians.

[jcankerhuxley]

i don't carry what this bozo does on the field....they will cut him loose as soon as they can....football is huge with the red state christian family nascar folks who won't forgive that - drugs, hookers, violence but not that.

personally i'd like to peel his skin off his body with my pocket knife.

I have seen both dog and cock fighting in the Malaysia and Indonesia. Not to many redneck christain NASCAR types there. If I remember correctly, about 90 percent of the population were those laid back, pot smoking, porn loving, Zappa listening Muslims that we all hear about and idol like rock stars. Seriously, I think the way they treat their women surely makes up for any sins against the animal world.

Heck, who are we to argue with their traditions? That would be racist and hateful against Muslims and Asians.

Damn it. I wrote this and then actually reread molly's post. I tried to edit it, with my opinions of the statute. Sorry Molly.

I hate this new format that does not let me edit my stupidity!

[Dark Knight]

Luckily they only cost $.50 to make.

Well then I guess that if the rumor is true that Nike will donate the entire stock to animal shelters as chew toys it won't be such a harsh hit.

Maybe the poor third-world kids that work in the sweatshops that made them will now get to wear them?

[Dunnyman]

That would be racist and hateful against Muslims and Asians.

Just like your entire pointless post. We're discussing Micheal Vick and a dogfighting operation that happened in Virginia USA.

[chris_mcclinch]

From PFT. Not news, but a pretty convincing "suspend now" argument.

Not particularly. I'll also remind everyone that everyone looks guilty as hell when the indictment is released. Why? Because at that point, you've only heard the prosecution's side, without a single syllable from the defense.

Moreover, for the benefit of the "court of public opinion" morons--a group that includes most of the mainstream sports media--defendents are under stict orders from counsel not to speak to the media before trial because no good and great harm can come from doing so.

I'm not saying Vick is innocent; I'm just refusing to damn him--and oppose suspending him--until we've heard his side.

"Meanwhile, the more we think about this, the more we believe that doing nothing is not a realistic option for the league or the Falcons. This is not a run-of-the-mill marijuana possession case. Nor is it a he-said, she-said in which Vick's version of the events can be accepted until proven otherwise.

Actually, it is a he-said, they said.

This is a situation in which 17 dead dogs, 54 live ones, and extensive dog fighting equipment and pharmaceuticals were removed from property OWNED BY Michael Vick. Though the Falcons and the NFL might not be privy to the full scope of the information (and, given that the team was under the false impression that Vick wouldn't be indicted, it might be prudent to get new sources), the indictment makes clear that Vick's "I'm never there" routine is and was a flat-out lie.

The only way that Vick's "I'm never there" line has any credence is if the four cooperating witnesses committed perjury before the grand jury, or if the feds are fabricating the allegations without regard to the fact that, at trial, they'll be publicly embarrassed when the truth comes out.

Because it's unheard of for people already in trouble with the law to perjure themselves and throw others under the bus to reduce their trouble. It's also unheard of for prosecutors to pursue flimsy evidence against celebrity (or merely high-profile) defendents to make a name for themselves. A prosecutor in North Carolina didn't recently bring an indictment against members of a college lacrosse team despite a total lack of evidence, for example.

The feds simply don't operate that way. They wouldn't allege that Vick was directly involved (and, thus, at and on the property) if they weren't sure that they could prove it in open court.

Except, as in the case of the Duke lacrosse scandal--a scandal that's still in the news--when they DO operate that way.

So everyone -- media, fans, Falcons, NFL, everyone -- needs to lose the Duke lacrosse paralysis and apply some common sense.

Does common sense include pointing out that we have only heard the allegations and have no clue as to the quality of the evidence against Vick? Just asking.

Whether or not he is acquitted, Vick has (through intentional misbehavior or otherwise) single-handedly done more damage to the NFL shield than any of the other players who have been arrested or suspended since at least Rae Carruth, and perhaps ever.

Highly dubious. I'd say that the repeat arrests of Tank Johnson did more damage, as the league pretty clearly sent the signal that Tank Johnson was above the law. In fact, I'd say that any time a player is arrested twice without a single suspension, it does more to damage the "NFL shield" than Vick has done to date.

Vick is the biggest name in the NFL to face criminal charges while still in the league, and these are some of the most heinous and despicable charges that anyone could face, short of rape or murder.

Is he a bigger name than Ray Lewis, who, lest we forget, DID actually face murder charges?

Here's another thing that is bothering us. If Vick were on the practice squad, would we even be having the discussion about what the league should do? Vick would be long gone and forgotten, like alleged Steelers pimp Richard Seigler and every other bottom-roster turd that was dumped at the first hint of trouble.

Of course not. And if Paris Hilton were just a regular person, nobody would have cared that she found prison stressful. Famous people get treated differently.

And what if any of us had just been indicted in federal court for conspiracy to maintain an interstate gambling enterprise and dog fighting operation, with allegations that 17 dog carcasses had been found on property we owned, and that we participated in killing eight of them? Would we be sitting cozy in our cubicles today?

Hard to say. But if I had been fired over those indictments and later cleared of all charges, you bet your ass I'd sue for wrongful termination.

Mike Vick is clearly getting the star treatment here from the NFL and the Falcons. And it's wrong. The irony is that, given his performances of late on the football field, he's really not a star anymore. "

The funny part is, I'm not sure he is getting the star treatment. He's being suspended with pay while he attends to his legal issues. That's about what I'd expect the NFL and the Falcons to do for anyone who wasn't caught red-handed.

And yes, I'm aware Ryan didn't write most of the text I quoted and responded to.

[HGervais]

Not helping Mr. Vick's case, one of his co-defendant's pleads guilty.

[molly1216]

Not helping Mr. Vick's case, one of his co-defendant's pleads guilty.

or when his teammates say he has a passion for dog fighting.

[HGervais]

All of the other people charged have changed pleas and one would assume they are singing...well, looks like Vick is probably going to go out and cut a deal as well. Story from ESPN.

[Boba Fett]

What's really sad about the Vick situation, is the guy was charged with killing at least 8 dogs personally and possibly having knowledge or a hand in at least 66 deaths of other dogs.

His maximum possible penalty? 6 years in federal prison and a $350,000 fine.

Now shift to the NBA's own scandal, the ref who was involved in betting on games, including those he officiated.

His maximum possible penalty? 25 years in federal prison and a $500,000 fine.

That speaks volumes about what our laws put priority on: killing dogs is bad, but by God, it's nothing compared to adding a smudge to the already heavily tarnished image of the NBA.

[HGervais]

Well it looks like the big reason Vick will probably take the plea is the grand jury is meeting again next week and the it will be RICO charges they are supposed to be considering against Vick. By taking the plea, it would appear Vick would not be indicted with any more charges.

[IChiWawa]

Well it looks like the big reason Vick will probably take the plea is the grand jury is meeting again next week and the it will be RICO charges they are supposed to be considering against Vick. By taking the plea, it would appear Vick would not be indicted with any more charges.

When the federal indictment first came down they said that it only pertained to interstate transport and related matters with intent to commit a crime. The cruelty to animals issues were to be decided by the state and county, neither of which (as far as I know) have determined which action if any they will take. Some have said that without the fed investigation this all would never have been reported and he would have only been issued a warning or misdemeanor citation by the locals.

'Expert' on the radio today said that regarding the fed charges, the key for Vick is whether he was the top organizer for the fights/gambling. If so (according to this guy) he'll do a year minimum. If however he can give evidence against persons of interest (bigger fish, known crime figures) that he was working with then he could reduce his charges.

[Dunnyman]

Well it looks like the big reason Vick will probably take the plea is the grand jury is meeting again next week and the it will be RICO charges they are supposed to be considering against Vick. By taking the plea, it would appear Vick would not be indicted with any more charges.

When the federal indictment first came down they said that it only pertained to interstate transport and related matters with intent to commit a crime. The cruelty to animals issues were to be decided by the state and county, neither of which (as far as I know) have determined which action if any they will take. Some have said that without the fed investigation this all would never have been reported and he would have only been issued a warning or misdemeanor citation by the locals.

'Expert' on the radio today said that regarding the fed charges, the key for Vick is whether he was the top organizer for the fights/gambling. If so (according to this guy) he'll do a year minimum. If however he can give evidence against persons of interest (bigger fish, known crime figures) that he was working with then he could reduce his charges.

However, if any kind of plea admits to any gambling, it's cause for a lifetime ban from football. I think Vick has played his last down in the NFL. He may stay out of prison with a plea bargain of some sort, but his next QB job will be with the Montreal Alouettes or Toronto Argonauts.

[Dan Mancini]

I think Vick has played his last down in the NFL. He may stay out of prison with a plea bargain of some sort, but his next QB job will be with the Montreal Alouettes or Toronto Argonauts...

...where he still won't be able to throw, and will be injured no later than the third game of the season.

[HGervais]

And if you had not heard the news from the bajillion news services reporting it today, Michael Vick is pleading guilty. I can almost feel the sweet, shrill embrace of Nancy Grace now.

[IChiWawa]

I was very surprised to hear Dr Harry Edwards, who often is a voice of reason in race-related matters, say that "this does not mean that Mike is a bad guy".


He also said that dog fighting was no different than office basketball pools and other forms of betting because both reflect a 'shadow subculture'.

Anyone who can't see the difference between making animals fight to the death, killing non-performers and forming a NCAA brackett has no clue on how brutal dog-fighting is.

[HGervais]

I've been pretty amazed speaking to some of the guys who work for me who are convinced it all white men taking down a black man. And when I rattle off the white congressmen currently under indictment or in prison and when I say Michael Vick & all those old white guys are in so much trouble because they are freaking idiots who thought they were above the law or that nobody could touch them all I get are blank stares. Enough to make me want to pound my head into a wall.

[Dark Knight]

I watched "Real Sports With Bryant Gumble" this week on HBO.
They had a spot about dog fighting. They talked to someone who was really into it (no face shown of course).
Plus they had hidden camera video of fights, and they followed police who found a compound with dogs & pups.
The person who ran it got away though. They went to the dog shelters that get these dogs after they're found and
how they have to be put down because they are considered a danger.
It was a really good look at such a sickening "sport".

[sneakers]

But, now that Vick is pleading Guilty and accepting resposibilty he most likely won't get much time for his crimes which sucks. I read in my newspaper this morning that Chicago police are going to crack down on Dog figthing because of this Michael Vick thing and PETA is offering a $5000.00 reward upon arrest and conviction to anyone who turns in someone involved in Dog Fighting.

[IChiWawa]

I watched "Real Sports With Bryant Gumble" this week on HBO.
They had a spot about dog fighting. They talked to someone who was really into it (no face shown of course).
Plus they had hidden camera video of fights, and they followed police who found a compound with dogs & pups.............It was a really good look at such a sickening "sport".

On KNBR Friday they were discussing that segment and said that some of it was brutal.

When this investigation was first made public I googled 'dog-fighting'..........after the first site I felt I knew enough to condemn anyone involved and no need to ever look at this stuff again. The photos were sickening.

I've been pretty amazed speaking to some of the guys who work for me who are convinced it all white men taking down a black man. And when I rattle off the white congressmen currently under indictment or in prison and when I say Michael Vick & all those old white guys are in so much trouble because they are freaking idiots who thought they were above the law or that nobody could touch them all I get are blank stares. Enough to make me want to pound my head into a wall.

On ESPN radio last night they had a few soundbites from an Atlanta fan who I guess had started to organize a boycott of NFL games by black fans as a means to protest the 'bigotry behind the charges'. He actually sounded pretty PO'd at Vick for changing his story and copping a plea. It wasn't really made clear (to me anyhoo) if he was mad that Vick initially lied ("I'm innocent", "I knew nothing about it") or that Vick 'caved in' but the reporter made it sound like the guy realized he'd been had. Hopefully.

[sneakers]

From what I've heard and read dog fighting is a black thing and is seen as cool in hip hop culture. Many rappers glorify dog fighting in their music videos so black people think it's cool.

Another thing I've read which is that people who are involved in it claim to really love their dogs. How could you love a dog and abuse it this way.

[IChiWawa]

From what I've heard and read dog fighting is a black thing and is seen as cool in hip hop culture. Many rappers glorify dog fighting in their music videos so black people think it's cool.

I think dog fighting crosses color lines. It may have gained popularity with the hip-hop nimrods but from what I've read it's been pretty popular with both whites and blacks in the south for years.

There's a short scene in The Drowning Pool (1975) where Murray Hamilton, as a Louisiana crime boss, shows Paul Newman pit bulls being 'warmed up' for a fight.

[Parklife]

Yeah, I think it falls upon economic lines rather than racial. But what do I know, I'm a middle-class white boy from South-East Pennsylvania and have never been exposed to it aside from films, news and now the NFL.

And to bring this back to movies, what about Amores Perros... My wife enjoys the movie but still can't watch a frame of the dog fighting sequence.

[Steve T Power]

From what I've heard and read dog fighting is a black thing and is seen as cool in hip hop culture. Many rappers glorify dog fighting in their music videos so black people think it's cool.

I think dog fighting crosses color lines. It may have gained popularity with the hip-hop nimrods but from what I've read it's been pretty popular with both whites and blacks in the south for years.

There's a short scene in The Drowning Pool (1975) where Murray Hamilton, as a Louisiana crime boss, shows Paul Newman pit bulls being 'warmed up' for a fight.

That's a flick i'd love to have on DVD - and the prequel.

[IChiWawa]

That's a flick i'd love to have on DVD - and the prequel.

Both are contained in The Paul Newman Collection (with Harper including commentary by William Goldman), along with The MacKintosh Man, Somebody Up There Likes Me, Pocket Money, The Left-Handed Gun and The Young Philadelphians.

The Mackintosh Man is an old favorite of mine. John Huston's subtle (and mostly forgotten) little gem is a pretty good telling of one of my favorite spy novels (The Freedom Trap) from my youth.