Origins of Origin of the Species: An Interview With Producer David Nickoll and Writer Robert Weston Ackerman

Judge David Ryan

May 17th, 2005

You think about making a movie one day, and six months later you've got a well-regarded drama with a talented young cast in the can. Sounds like fiction, doesn't it? Yet that's precisely the experience that first-time producer David Nickoll and first-time screenwriter Robert Weston Ackerman had with Origin of the Species, recently released on DVD by Monarch Home Video.

Nickoll, a Los Angeles native, began his career as a production manager for NBC's legendary Saturday Night Live. In 1996, he was the recipient of the Mark Silverman Independent Producers Fellowship from the Sundance Institute. While on the fellowship, he worked as the assistant to producer (and frequent Coen Brothers casting director) John Lyons (Austin Powers 2: The Spy Who Shagged Me, Pieces of April) during the filming of Paul Anderson's Boogie Nights. Origin of the Species was produced during one of SNL's summer breaks, and was his first experience at the head of a feature motion picture production.

New Yorker Ackerman's "day job" was that of a humble prop director at SNL, but behind the scenes he secretly wanted to write for the stage. He was inspired to write Origin of the Species, his first play, after a friend's death made him rethink his priorities in life. The play eventually found its way to a small off-off-Broadway production; Ackerman invited Nickoll (whom he knew from work) to see it. Six months later, it was a feature film starring Amanda Peet, Elon Gold, Jean Louisa Kelly, and Jon LaPaglia, with a adapted screenplay penned by Ackerman himself.

DVD Verdict spoke to Nickoll and Ackerman about the trials -- and triumphs -- of independent filmmaking.

DVD Verdict: When did the idea of bringing this play to the big screen first arise?

Robert Ackerman: My very first play had a showcase production at a tiny theater in downtown Manhattan, and David was kind enough to come. I had no idea he had won a Silverman Fellowship at Sundance and was looking for a feature project to produce. To me, he was just a good guy who hired me to do prop work from time to time. When he said he wanted to make an independent film based on my play, I was in the throes of post-partum post-production depression, so I told him he was crazy and hung up. He called back and said, "No, I'm serious, I wanna make this into a movie." Then he called my agent, took a six-month option on the script, and told me he'd have the movie in the can before that option ran out. That's basically unheard of, but it's exactly what happened.

David Nickoll: Rob and I worked together at Saturday Night Live, and he asked me to come see his play. I had just returned from the Sundance Film Festival as part of my Silverman Fellowship. I was inspired by the indie films I had seen and was looking to make a movie. Rob's writing moved me, and the contained nature of the play made it ideal for adapting to the screen for a low budget film. I contacted Rob, and he took a long time sending me the play. He didn't think I was serious, and probably thought I was too young to make a feature. I also took a really cheap six-month option. No one makes movies in that time frame -- but we were actually done shooting before six months.

DVDV: The two of you, as well as director Andres Heinz, all worked together on Saturday Night Live. How did your experience making parody films and commercials for television impact your moviemaking experiences?

RWA: Dave will try to answer that question, but he'll probably be too modest. He used every resource available, and every trick he gleaned from the frantic world of weekly live TV. He wrangled legal issues, casting, equipment deals, locations, craftspeople, script development, finances, logistics, catering -- everything. And he did it without ever making me or Andres feel constricted or pressured.

DN: Working at SNL taught us how to work really hard, how to work on short leads, and how to make good-looking products. I had learned how to budget and schedule productions. Those commercial parodies are like mini-feature films. As a Line Producer, I knew all the vendors in New York, and worked with excellent crews. I was able to convince many of those people to cut their rates dramatically and work on the film for three weeks during the show's summer hiatus. We also gave people a chance to work up a level, since they were being paid so little. There was a steep learning curve for many of us, but a few really experienced people helped us hold it together.

RWA: Look, I'm older than Dave and I've worked with a lot of producers. And even at his tender age, he was smarter, more nurturing, and more indefatigable than guys with fifty times his experience. And, yeah, I'm sure he was scared out of his mind. He had to be. Managing an indie feature is basically like going to war with a third-world army. Everything happens faster than the speed of thought. But he couldn't have been a better leader.

He did so many cool and intuitive things. Like, for instance, he cut a mini-trailer from our dailies during the first week of shooting to get us all psyched. He hired a crew to come out and shoot interviews during the filming. And he loved the story, believed in the characters, and knew that what we were doing was worthwhile, even when the hydra-headed beast of doubt, despair, and bankruptcy showed its nasty faces.

DVDV: Stage plays and cinematic features are very different formats. How did you set about converting one to the other?

RWA: Dave gave me the first crack at it. I knew the geography of Westchester; some of the local haunts that would resonate with the characters' issues. Places like the donut stand, and the abandoned mansion, and my wife's childhood house. I wrote those into the early screenplay drafts. But I was not a film school alumnus; not a real screenwriter. Andres knew the necessities of the medium, and he converted my work into a skeletal outline, a simple story that he and I could argue about.

Then we started working together. He would give me short assignments, things like "Fisher grills Stan about his future and sex -- don't reveal too much." And I'd rollerblade down to the East Village, stopping to scribble on my notepad.

Essentially, what happened is the characters' agonies and motivations originated within me, then the full arcs of their stories came from Andres pressing me to write them. We owe the fact that the movie is beautifully crafted to the talent and tenacity of Mister Heinz. He fully deserved a screenwriting credit, but he was too kind and gracious to ask for one.

DN: We tried to open up the play and use the bucolic surroundings of Armonk, New York. We didn't want the film to be a claustrophobic weekend in a house, so we set a lot of scenes outside. For a little movie, we really utilized a lot of locations. Our cinematographer Stephen Kazmierski (You Can Count On Me) did an excellent job of making the movie look bigger and more beautiful.

DVDV: What did you look for in a cast? Anything in particular?

DN: We cast the film with Beth Melsky, an experienced New York casting director. She loved the script, and felt comfortable bringing in experienced actors because the roles were basically all leads. She knows everyone in New York and did an amazing job of bringing in hundreds of really talented actors. We were all fairly new to the process, so she helped find the right mix.

RWA: I had almost nothing to do with that, but boy, was I happy with the choices those guys ended up making. Beth Melsky really knows what she's doing.

DVDV: As a first-time producer and a first-time screenwriter, what did you learn about filmmaking that you didn't know going in? What did you wish you had known going in?

DN: I think if I knew everything that goes into making a movie before going in, I might not have done it. Everything costs more than you anticipate. Nothing goes according to plan. Frankly, if I knew I'd be spending this much time on Origin this many years later, I would have never committed to it. But naivetée can be a very good thing. I'm a bit Pollyannaish, so I thought everything would work out. And, to a large extent, it all worked out way better than I ever imagined. We have an amazing cast. And we shot on 35mm, so it looks like a really big movie.

RWA: At one of the festivals, a young producer-director said that if you want to make a movie you should try to learn a lot, but not too much, because if you truly knew what was involved, you'd never do it. I'm glad I didn't know too much.

At one point during one of our marathon session, Andres turned to me and said, "It's so cool to be writing stuff that we know is gonna go on film." So much of what you write is just practice. Origin is now a DVD. Andres was right -- that is cool.

DVDV: Were the "dream sequences" a part of the original stage play? I'd think it would be difficult to stage them in a theater setting.

RWA: The dream sequences were another Andres idea. He created most of them, but I came up with a couple. I love them, but there's no way anything like that would work on stage, except maybe in a musical.

DN: The dream sequences were added as a way to enter the interior monologues of each of the characters. I believe they were Andres' invention, and they really work well. They took the place of some beautifully-written monologues in the stage version that wouldn't have worked well on film. They also gave Andres an opportunity to show off some of his talents. His NYU films were much more surreal in tone than Origin, so it was a way of putting his stamp on the film.

DVDV: Thematically, what did you want the viewer to bring away from Origin? Do you think you communicated that in the finished film?

RWA: For me the film is about literal and spiritual infertility; that particular yearning you feel at the trailing edge of youth, when you know you're letting time pass without gaining traction in life. Each of the characters is facing that barrenness in different ways. I believe the film communicates that, but not everyone gets its message. You can't please everyone all the time.

DVDV: Are you happy with the finished product?

DN: I am thrilled with the finished film. I loved watching it on the big screen at festivals, and I'm extremely proud of the work we all did. I think the movie holds up and is a timeless classic in its own way. There are people all over the world who really adore this movie. The programming director at the Galway Film Fleadh loved it and programmed it. It played in Avignon as well. It's a distinctly American film in some ways, but its themes are truly universal.

RWA: I love the frickin' film, and of course I'm utterly objective. Seriously, film is a director's medium, and I think Andres did a fantastic job. As for me, it was my first time out and I had a lot to learn. I learned some of it.

DVDV: Would you do anything differently?

DN: In spite of the hard work and the arduous road to the DVD release, I would do it all over again. It has been an amazing journey. Sometimes I question how much time I spend on our website (www.originofthespeciesthemovie.com), but I love this movie and all the people involved, so I am dedicated to getting it seen by as wide an audience as possible. I guess the only thing I wish I had done differently is enjoy every moment of making the film. There were some harrowing days during production where I was just terrified it wouldn't work out.

RWA: I wish there were more sex in the movie. The French woman who did the subtitles said it was the sexiest movie with no sex in it she'd ever seen. And I agree. It's about these people's struggles for intimacy and union, and it would have been okay with me to show that more, um, shall we say, explicitly. Then again, the tension in the movie holds because there's all this unresolved erotic energy, so maybe that works in its favor. So, on second thought, I like it just the way it is. Yeah, it's perfect.

DVDV: What are you both up to now?

DN: I've been working as a writer-producer-segment director at The Late Late Show (initially with Craig Kilborn, and now with Craig Ferguson) for the past six and a half years. Over the years, we've had four of our cast members on the show as guests promoting their other projects. It has been amazing to see the cast go on to be so successful. Last spring I wrote for Elon Gold's Bravo pilot, but unfortunately that didn't get picked up...

RWA: I've continued writing plays. My latest, Disconnect, is now in production with The Working Theater. It opens on East 13th Street in Manhattan on May 31 for a four-week run.

DN: A few years ago, we tried to turn Rob's award-winning play Tabletop into a television series. We pitched to networks, but ultimately it didn't work out. He has written the screenplay version for another producer, so it still could wind up on the big screen. I would love to work with Rob, Andres, and our cast again.

DVDV: What advice do you have for film novices who want to make their own movies?

DN: Before undertaking a feature film project, I'd recommend speaking to as many filmmakers as you can possibly meet. Find out how they made their films, what problems they encountered, how they cast, how they found financing. I was fortunate in that I knew producer Jim Stark, who gave me a lot of great advice. Even so, there were still many hidden costs and unforeseen obstacles. You're better off knowing how difficult the process is before going into it.

Make sure you absolutely love the material and you are prepared to commit your life to this project for as long as it takes. Our development period was extremely short, but most films languish for years while you try to assemble cast, raise financing, rewrite the script, et cetera. Once you're finished making the film, you need to spend a lot of time seeking distribution, playing festivals, and so on. That can be really time consuming and demoralizing if you don't sell the film relatively quickly. It took us years to get to DVD, but ultimately it was incredibly gratifying.

Like anything else in life, it requires a lot of hard work and passion to succeed. Unfortunately, you can work hard and be passionate and still fail creatively, financially, or both. There's only so much you can control. Getting distribution was a Pyrrhic victory; it certainly wasn't a financial boon. The great satisfaction comes from seeing an audience enjoy the film on the big screen or on DVD, and knowing that you made something worthwhile that moved or inspired others. That, alone, is worth the hefty price of admission. For me, at least.

DVD Verdict would like to thank Dave and Rob for taking the time to speak with us!